Is this a Somerset-ism?

[Brian G Turner]

I'm not familiar with it, though the context explains the meaning.

 

[David Evil Overlord]

It's used here in Melbourne, Australia. Maybe it's used more by older people of UK descent, but it is used.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

My Welsh grandfather used to use the expression.
I think it's pretty general across the UK.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Well, I'm a Yorkshireman and I've both heard and used the term myself. It also seems fairly clear from context alone.

 

[Ursa major]

to sound more "regional"

But it isn't regional. No-one in the UK would think, on reading that dialogue, "That character comes from the West Country."

It may not be widely known in the US, but that is something else: a difference between US and UK usage. And there lies the issue for Mouse: should she be using a meaning of the word, lookout, that her readers in the US might not comprehend?

 

[Mouse]

I think I will just change it to problem, just for simplicity. And I'll tell Mr Essex he's a div.

 

[Onyx]

But it isn't regional. No-one in the UK would think, on reading that dialogue, "That character comes from the West Country."

It may not be widely known in the US, but that is something else: a difference between US and UK usage. And there lies the issue for Mouse: should she be using a meaning of the word, lookout, that her readers in the US might not comprehend?

But what I said in full was:

So it may be something best saved for a character that is supposed to sound more "regional" if you are writing for an international audience.

I used the quotes on purpose. People in other countries don't know what someone in the UK considers a region. They may even consider England a region.

 

[Ursa major]

I know you did; it is irrelevant to what I was pointing out, that the way Mouse's text was using lookout is not regional in any way, shape or form.

By the way, it seems rather ironic that, in a thread about the meaning of a word, you are using a word, regional (with or without quotation marks), where its meaning is so apparently unclear that you state that you don't know what might be meant by it... particularly when, prior to your post, people from around the UK (indeed, from around the world) have been stating that the usage is not regional at all.

 

[Onyx]

I know you did; it is irrelevant to what I was pointing out, that the way Mouse's text was using lookout is not regional in any way, shape or form.

By the way, it seems rather ironic that, in a thread about the meaning of a word, you are using a word, regional (with or without quotation marks), where its meaning is so apparently unclear that you state that you don't know what might be meant by it... particularly when, prior to your post, people from around the UK (indeed, from around the world) have been stating that the usage is not regional at all.

Hello again Ursa,

I don't understand the issue.

I didn't imply that Mouse used it in a regional way, nor did I say that it is a regional bit of speech.

What I was attempting to communicate is that "lookout", being an informal usage that even some people in the UK have never heard (I'm assuming Essex is in the UK, as is Brian G Turner), might be a usage better employed when you want to make a character sound like they are from someplace that uses less "mainstream" terms in daily speech if you expect an international readership. Which I tried to restate here:

I could certainly see reserving its use for when the author wants the speaker to sound like they are definitely from somewhere or are being informal.

And I don't see what the problem with "regional" being an unclear term. I don't know if it has a very specific meaning to you, but to me a region could an area four times the size of the British Isles (the South), or it could one town. My usage of it was to imply that characters could have backgrounds dictated by their location of origin - whether that location was the Upper East Side or Europe. I was, after all, talking about how the author wants the person to "sound" or feel, not suggesting that the language employed was there to act as a clue for forensic linguistics, just a way of making one or more characters distinct. And it would only work if used with other informal expressions, contractions, colorful language, etc.


That might be an awful idea. It was only a suggestion I was making, and I was hoping that my use of quotes would make it clear that I was talking about how something feels when you read it, rather than establishing some sort of canon within the work. If I've used the word "regional" in a dismissive or offensive way to UK people in attempting to communicate my notions, I apologize.

 

[Venusian Broon]

I think I will just change it to problem, just for simplicity. And I'll tell Mr Essex he's a div.

Seems perfectly reasonable term of general UK use, in case you feel you can just keep it there! Perhaps a rare beast not constantly used - but totally understandable and definitely used up here in Jockland.

Boo simplicity!

 

[Ursa major]

I don't understand the issue.

You wrote

So it may be something best saved for a character that is supposed to sound more "regional"

about a word that cannot be used to make a character sound more "regional" because the particular meaning of the word, lookout, is not restricted to people from a specific region (however large that region might be).


EDIT: There's no need to apologise: no offense was given and none was taken.

 

[Onyx]

You wrote
about a word that cannot be used to make a character sound more "regional" because the particular meaning of the word, lookout, is not restricted to people from a specific region (however large that region might be).

It appears to be somewhat restricted to the UK, but what I said was that is sounds like a regionalism to those outside the UK, so it might be employed to create that impression to those outside the UK.

It may be a false impression, but I'm only talking about impressions. So the only real question is whether it would have the effect of making the international reader think they were reading a colloquialism or not. If not, then my suggestion was merely poor, not ironic.


And maybe we're simply not communicating well about this because of the incredibly finely tuned sense of origin those in the UK have. People in many other English speaking places wouldn't dream of correctly guessing which part of a city someone grew up in by the way they speak. Nomenclature, accent and cadence simply aren't nearly as diverse here.

 

[Ursa major]

but what I said was that is sounds like a regionalism to those outside the UK

Does it? If the thread had not started with the Mouse -- someone from the UK, not outside the UK -- asking whether it sounded as if it might be limited to one place (Somerset), would anyone have assumed that it had anything to do with a region at all?

Note that those who had told her that they didn't understand it -- her beta reader and her partner -- did not seem to mention the possibility that it might be a regional usage. The reason that Mouse thought it might be is that there have been occasions when she has used words or phrases that are not heard outside Somerset and/or the wider West Country.

It may be a false impression, but I'm only talking about impressions.

The only evidence available (that which is here on this thread) is that it is not regional at all. So how have you gained this false impression, and (more particularly) why is it so resistant to evidence (all of the evidence so far presented) to the contrary?

 

[Vladd67]

Do American authors care if foreigners can understand their regional terms or do they just expect everyone in the world to know what they are talking about?

 

[Cat's Cradle]

I would think (and hope) most U.S. authors would just write in the voice, and with the colloquialisms, that sound most natural for their identity as a writer. And I would think most U.S. readers would expect (and hope) authors from other places would do the same. And I would think most U.S. readers would find it interesting, more realistic, and quite charming to encounter colloquialisms* they are unfamiliar with, in stories of places they haven't personally experienced, and that they would find that this makes the story more believable and authentic. I think Mouse has decided the issue to her own satisfaction, but late to the game as I am, I would say use "lookout", and give the reader the chance to happily figure out the meaning from the context. CC

* sorry if 'colloquialism' isn't the correct term for the way that 'lookout' is used, here.

 

[Harpo]

Do American authors care if foreigners can understand their regional terms or do they just expect everyone in the world to know what they are talking about?

Ee bah gum

 

[Phyrebrat]

You live and learn; I’ve spent my entire life thinking it was ‘luck out’. I’ve probably made a fool of myself saying it that way, too!

The larger thing for me, anyway, M, is that everyone here has heard of it and knows the context, so I’d keep it.

As far as USA readership concerns go, I’d reiterate what I always say about questions like this: read to learn; as an 11 year old when I started reading Stephen King I learnt hundreds of US-specific terms and words. If not from context, then I’d look ‘em up! These days e-readers often have an option to define words, too.

This is like a version of my patois thread. It proves you can write (regardless of whether something is dialect or colloquial) using words etc anticipating a possible struggle, but that people catch the gist.

And it means you found a div for life just like you!

pH

 

[TheDustyZebra]

And maybe we're simply not communicating well about this because of the incredibly finely tuned sense of origin those in the UK have. People in many other English speaking places wouldn't dream of correctly guessing which part of a city someone grew up in by the way they speak. Nomenclature, accent and cadence simply aren't nearly as diverse here.

Yes, there is this. It always amazes me that such a relatively small country can have such precise identifiers of where someone is from. It's not at all like the same size space here --it's like someone shrank America into one state and all the regional identifiers of language squished right down with it.

 

[Onyx]

Does it? If the thread had not started with the Mouse -- someone from the UK, not outside the UK -- asking whether it sounded as if it might be limited to one place (Somerset), would anyone have assumed that it had anything to do with a region at all?

Note that those who had told her that they didn't understand it -- her beta reader and her partner -- did not seem to mention the possibility that it might be a regional usage. The reason that Mouse thought it might be is that there have been occasions when she has used words or phrases that are not heard outside Somerset and/or the wider West Country.
The only evidence available (that which is here on this thread) is that it is not regional at all. So how have you gained this false impression, and (more particularly) why is it so resistant to evidence (all of the evidence so far presented) to the contrary?

Not really.

In my experience, a familiar word used in an unfamiliar way is "regional". When I lived for several years in the US South, people referred to "putting [things] up" rather than "away", which sounded odd but vaguely familiar. But the habit of some of those people of calling a car parking lot, parking spot or parking space "a park" was something I had never heard before or since in any other parts of the South.

So when I read this usage of "lookout", it struck me the exact same way. None of the ex-pat Brits, South Africans, Canadians or Australians used the term that way when I worked with them either, and 40 odd years of UK media I've intently watched and read further made it seem obscure - to me. And I might have just missed it, but generally notice words and word usage.

It sounds like a regional colloquialism to my ears. I don't know how else to label a word employed like this. And I wasn't warning Mouse not to use it, but suggesting that it feels like a colloquialism, and might be best employed as if it were one.



We drove down crowded side streets intent for any gap. "If we don't find a park soon, we're going to miss the opening."

What kind of speech does that sound like to you?

 

[Parson]

I've heard in in the US; but it's not common.
It doesn't seem difficult to figure out what it means.

Exactly! I doubt any American would have trouble understanding that line.

So, in a way, it is a Somerset-ism (specifically a W. Somerset Maugham-ism...)

On the other hand, when I read Somerset-ism, I thought it had something to do with Somersset Maugham, and thought it must be something like a "Spoonerism."