How to write romance in science fiction?

[Onyx]

Pat Rothfuss Name if the Wind. Denna is just awful.

I might even find out if she’s supposed to be as unconvincing as she is before I’m 80....

Yeah, not reading fantasy, I don't think we're likely to find a common and lauded author to talk about. It was a dumb idea on my part.

I have a feeling that the complaint that SF authors don't portray romantic relationships with an skill might be a leftover from the Asimov days rather than a widespread contemporary problem unrelated to quality. But I have no way of really demonstrating that. It is like Emotional Intelligence™, once you start to control for other personality traits and general ability, it starts looking like it might be an illusion. I think it is highly likely that skilled contemporary SF writers have no special problem or aversion to writing good relationships, other than the fact that they might choose to write a story that isn't levered on such a relationship.

The real problem, in my experience, is that there is a lot of poor SF out there. So if you're looking for any one failing it is easy to find, but if you control for groupings of lower quality traits it strongly correlates.

Which hardly helps someone trying to learn to write, except to suggest that if their instincts and ability are good, they have a chance of getting that right, along with everything else they are trying to get right.


Personally, I think the "trick" is to offer the reader curious personal moments of great import, rather than try to make the most ordinary type of human interaction shine.

 

[Mouse]

Sorry not read the whole thread (can't be arsed!) and I know this is the writing forum but you didn't specify books... John and Aeryn in Farscape are hands down the best relationship in sci-fi. Their relationship is complex and believable and - importantly - they are each other's equal, which you don't find a great deal (other than in gay romances, which do it better).

I've noticed people blowing their own trumpets in this thread so here are two more SFF books with romance:
Space Mac - romcom set in space by me, published by NineStar Press
Shuttered - spec fic with a talking dog and ghosts by me, published by Dreamspinner Press.

CisHet writers possibly should be checking out more LGBT+ authors to get this whole 'women do this better/men do this better' thing out of their minds. There are some great male romance writers.

 

[Brian G Turner]

SF writers ... might choose to write a story that isn't levered on such a relationship.

IMO it would be easy to argue that SF tends to be a vehicle for ideas with character development as a secondary concern - and you need developed characters for convincing relationships.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

IMO it would be easy to argue that SF tends to be a vehicle for ideas with character development as a secondary concern - and you need developed characters for convincing relationships.

I’d argue that only some SF genres have the focus on idea generation. Anything in the social sci-fi field requires strong character development - as does anything in sfromance, a lot of Space Opera and loads of other stuff out there.

The definition of sf as ideas-led and generated only touches on one small part of the genre. Just because the others feel less ‘weighty’ (perhaps) or less like the sf we imagine the genre to be doesn’t give them less validity in the genre

 

[Venusian Broon]

I’d argue that only some SF genres have the focus on idea generation. Anything in the social sci-fi field requires strong character development - as does anything in sfromance, a lot of Space Opera and loads of other stuff out there.

The definition of sf as ideas-led and generated only touches on one small part of the genre. Just because the others feel less ‘weighty’ (perhaps) or less like the sf we imagine the genre to be doesn’t give them less validity in the genre

While I agree generally with what you've put there, to say that only a small subset of SF genre is "ideas-led" strikes me as a little too extreme.

Personally, such an approach is so interwoven from the start (I agree with many that Modern SF begins with Mary Shelley's Frankenstein) and a part of the genres DNA, that to dismiss it as a small subset seems wrong to me. It's part of the core of what makes the genre.

Social SF is ideas-led too, IMO, not in 'traditional' areas of speculation, but in speculation about human society.

Now, that doesn't mean I expect all SF stories to be ideas-led* - I concur with your sentiments and like exploration for a genre - but I would expect to see at the very least a tiny 'tip of hat' to this essential part of SF for a story/novel/film to tell me 'this is SF'. Honestly, doesn't need to be much.


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* For me Star Wars is, at it's core, is a fantasy epic, but so weighted down with Sci-fi tropes, baggage and tech that it clearly gets dragged into Space Opera. Which is fine. I'm happy describing it as SF.

 

[Onyx]

While I agree generally with what you've put there, to say that only a small subset of SF genre is "ideas-led" strikes me as a little too extreme.

Personally, such an approach is so interwoven from the start (I agree with many that Modern SF begins with Mary Shelley's Frankenstein) and a part of the genres DNA, that to dismiss it as a small subset seems wrong to me. It's part of the core of what makes the genre.

Social SF is ideas-led too, IMO, not in 'traditional' areas of speculation, but in speculation about human society.

Now, that doesn't mean I expect all SF stories to be ideas-led* - I concur with your sentiments and like exploration for a genre - but I would expect to see at the very least a tiny 'tip of hat' to this essential part of SF for a story/novel/film to tell me 'this is SF'. Honestly, doesn't need to be much.


---------------------------------

* For me Star Wars is, at it's core, is a fantasy epic, but so weighted down with Sci-fi tropes, baggage and tech that it clearly gets dragged into Space Opera. Which is fine. I'm happy describing it as SF.

There clearly are many types of SF that engage in almost no "ideas" - the adventure stuff that just recycles existing SF tropes in a new shape - something I think fantasy is often accused of.

I agree that social science SF isn't any more character driven - Asimov and Herbert both engage in it heavily with Psychometry, Chaplain/Psychologists, Dosadi, Hives and even the Three Laws as moral constraints.


None of which prevent character development from happening any more than an Idea at the core of a mystery novel does. And I'm not even certain what character development has to do with romance - characters develop whether they are alone in the desert of surrounded by people - domestic bliss is just a very specific kind of character relationship - and it isn't always convenient. Holmes, Watson, Marple and Poirot didn't seem to have time in their schedules to dote on their domestic situations either, so why do we say that relationships are only a problem in SF? Is it because of the contrast to SF's sister fantasy, which is often packed full of romantic elements from stem to stern?



* Star Wars, at its core, is a visual medium, and it is visually/aesthetically strongly SF. The dragon slaying story in Alien and the golems-with-souls story of Bladerunner are no more or less fantasy in construction. Visual SF substitutes the clear as day evidence of a hyperdrive for the literary exposition of one. The big ideas are unspoken because they are undeniably part of the world we're witnessing. Star Wars was always conceived to be a movie, not literature.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Star Wars, at its core, is a visual medium, and it is visually/aesthetically strongly SF. The dragon slaying story in Alien and the golems-with-souls story of Bladerunner are no more or less fantasy in construction. Visual SF substitutes the clear as day evidence of a hyperdrive for the literary exposition of one. The big ideas are unspoken because they are undeniably part of the world we're witnessing. Star Wars was always conceived to be a movie, not literature.

+1 for articulating what I couldn't.

 

[Joshua Jones]

This has been a great discussion so far, and I hope it continues for some time. I will give some thoughts on a few different points here.

Somewhere back a bit, there was a call for clearer definitions for Romance, Romance scene, and so forth. The following is how I am using the terms:
Romance Scene: a dipiction of physical intimacy between two or more individuals, sometimes used as a culmination scene of a romance story arc.
Romantic Relationship: a relationship between two individuals based on mutual affection and commitment, which tends to develop over time. They frequently progress from initial meeting, development of interest, courtship of some form, infatuation, marriage, first crisis (disillusionment as rose colored glasses come off, leading to first major period of separation or first rekindling), stagnation, second crisis (aging and the departure of children/loss of ability to conceive, leading to second major period of separation or second rekindling), aging together, and separation by death.

SF Romance genre: a subgenre of SF which has, as its primary story arc, a romantic relationship, typically during the early stages of meeting and courtship.

My initial question regarded SF which addresses the stages of life between marriage and separation by death, not so much a romance scene or romance genre. My perception is that the overwhelming majority of relationships in SF feature characters who start out single and move either toward a romance scene (think the Romances in the Mass Effect series), or toward marriage/cohabitation of some sort. I can only think of a handful of examples in SF as a whole (adding to the existing mentions Wash and Zoe from Firefly) which deal with phases after this. Hence my question of examples, especially examples in literature, of mature, complex romantic relationships.

I love, however, how this discussion has evolved, so let me chime in on the other part. As a reader, what I find most compelling is ideas being explored and demonstrated by realistic people. When people make sense within their environment and interact with one another as one would expect them to, the impact of the idea being explored is significantly enhanced. Consider industrial scale chattle cloning of custom genomes. People build from the ground up to prefer and be skilled at whatever task they were created to perform. What happens when they start developing relationships with one another? How dangerous might it be for their children, given the engineered state of their parents? If dangerous, should they be sterilized? Would they be considered property, and if so, what would happen if someone tried to start a breeding program? Interesting questions (in my mind, anyway), and suitable questions to be explored in SF. But, how much more powerful would be the exploration of this if the protagonist was a clone who fell in love with another clone?

The point I am trying to make here is that being ideas driven doesn't seem to exclude being character driven. The impact of these ideas can be seen most vividly through the eyes of those who suffer the consequences of the idea. Is this not the very essence of "show, don't tell"?

Oh, yeah, and Star Wars is definitely space fantasy. No question in my mind.

 

[Onyx]

Hence my question of examples, especially examples in literature, of mature, complex romantic relationships.

Looking at my bookshelf:

There's several mature couples in Counting Heads.
Also maybe 4 or 5 in the Revelation Space books.
More in Marrow and follow on works.
Heechee books, and quite a few others by Fredrick Pohl - especially Starburst.
Mona Lisa Overdrive.
Player of Games.
Halo by Maddox.
Terminal Cafe.
A Fire Upon the Deep.
The Fall Revolution books.
Footfall and Lucifer's Hammer.
2010.
1984.
Many Dune books.
Old Man's War sequels.
Red, Green, Blue Mars.
So Long and Thanks For All the Fish.
Watchmen.
Stranger In a Strange Land, Number of the Beast.
Slaughterhouse Five.
The Expanse.

I don't think depictions of mature relationships are rare or hard to find in SF.

Oh, yeah, and Star Wars is definitely space fantasy. No question in my mind.

Then virtually all visual SF is.

 

[Danny McG]

This has been discussed in Chrons a few times and my personal thing when reading a sci fi story is to give it a page or two when the romance stuff starts.
If it's still carrying on after that then I close the book and never reopen it.
I might try that same author again but with a somewhat wary approach.

I go to bookshops/libraries and head to the SF section - bypassing the R en route. Don't pull the wool over my eyes, I spend a small fortune on books and ebooks in my preferred genre and don't like being tricked into buying a (shudder!) Love story instead

 

[Joshua Jones]

Looking at my bookshelf:

There's several mature couples in Counting Heads.
Also maybe 4 or 5 in the Revelation Space books.
More in Marrow and follow on works.
Heechee books, and quite a few others by Fredrick Pohl - especially Starburst.
Mona Lisa Overdrive.
Player of Games.
Halo by Maddox.
Terminal Cafe.
A Fire Upon the Deep.
The Fall Revolution books.
Footfall and Lucifer's Hammer.
2010.
1984.
Many Dune books.
Old Man's War sequels.
Red, Green, Blue Mars.
So Long and Thanks For All the Fish.
Watchmen.
Stranger In a Strange Land, Number of the Beast.
Slaughterhouse Five.
The Expanse.

I don't think depictions of mature relationships are rare or hard to find in SF.


Then virtually all visual SF is.

Thanks for the list. Now, the real question is how much detail they go into and how realistic they are. But, that is more a question for my study than anything else.

Regarding Star Wars, I am not convinced that the identification of it as space fantasy necessarily implies the rest of visual SF is space fantasy. I categorize it as such because the overwhelming majority of the tropes related to the storyline are borrowed from Fantasy, while the setting is space. I don't see the same borrowing in, say, Battlestar Galactica, Firefly, Dr. Who, Star Trek, Babylon 5, and so forth. Further, if one imported the storyline of Star Wars to a medieval setting, changed the Death Star to a dragon that destroyed cities, and the space fighters to horses and fleets into armies, you have a full Fantasy story.

That isn't a knock against Star Wars, btw. I would probably give my left arm to make as much money off my work as Lucas did his. But, I cannot avoid the characterization of it as space fantasy.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

This has been discussed in Chrons a few times and my personal thing when reading a sci fi story is to give it a page or two when the romance stuff starts.
If it's still carrying on after that then I close the book and never reopen it.
I might try that same author again but with a somewhat wary approach.

I go to bookshops/libraries and head to the SF section - bypassing the R en route. Don't pull the wool over my eyes, I spend a small fortune on books and ebooks in my preferred genre and don't like being tricked into buying a (shudder!) Love story instead

But what about us who like a bit of relationship stuff in our sf books and still see it as our preferred genre? Shouldn’t we still be able to find those on the shelves? Provided it’s clearly marketed as sf romance what’s the problem?

Star Wars = Space Fantasy here

 

[Joshua Jones]

This has been discussed in Chrons a few times and my personal thing when reading a sci fi story is to give it a page or two when the romance stuff starts.
If it's still carrying on after that then I close the book and never reopen it.
I might try that same author again but with a somewhat wary approach.

I go to bookshops/libraries and head to the SF section - bypassing the R en route. Don't pull the wool over my eyes, I spend a small fortune on books and ebooks in my preferred genre and don't like being tricked into buying a (shudder!) Love story instead

I have been meaning to ask; what about in stories where there are multiple protagonists, and the "love story" part is not included in all (or most) of the protagonists. Especially if you know from participation in the Challenges that the author tends to kill off likable characters after the reader has built a bond with them...?

 

[Danny McG]

I have been meaning to ask; what about in stories where there are multiple protagonists, and the "love story" part is not included in all (or most) of the protagonists. Especially if you know from participation in the Challenges that the author tends to kill off likable characters after the reader has built a bond with them...?

Well, if I spot a 'victim couple' then I persist with a book and try and envisage how they'll meet their fate . Now and again such characters take over a story and don't die!
(See my earlier comments about approaching other books by that author in a wary manner)

 

[Onyx]

Thanks for the list. Now, the real question is how much detail they go into and how realistic they are. But, that is more a question for my study than anything else.

Regarding Star Wars, I am not convinced that the identification of it as space fantasy necessarily implies the rest of visual SF is space fantasy. I categorize it as such because the overwhelming majority of the tropes related to the storyline are borrowed from Fantasy, while the setting is space. I don't see the same borrowing in, say, Battlestar Galactica, Firefly, Dr. Who, Star Trek, Babylon 5, and so forth. Further, if one imported the storyline of Star Wars to a medieval setting, changed the Death Star to a dragon that destroyed cities, and the space fighters to horses and fleets into armies, you have a full Fantasy story.

That isn't a knock against Star Wars, btw. I would probably give my left arm to make as much money off my work as Lucas did his. But, I cannot avoid the characterization of it as space fantasy.

Star Wars doesn't really borrow heavily from any major tropes of fantasy. The swords aren't magical - just disposable technology. The quest isn't for a particular magic object or to slay dragon. It's a war story with politics - like the story of Troy.

Battlestar Galactica - von Däniken "ancient astronaut" adaptation, same with the Pheonix
Firefly - Westerns
Dr. Who - travel serials, Around the World in 80 days
Star Trek - Horatio Hornblower, travel serials
Space 1999 - Travel serials
Babylon 5 - soap operas

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Star Wars fantasy tropes:

The quest to save the Princess
The chosen one scenario
The hero’s journey structure which is a fantasy trope and which Star Wars follows to the letter
Magical powers (The force is given no sf expanation in the way psi powers would)

It’s a fantasy set in space. What’s not to like

(As to the other - kill characters when it’s needed for you want to. People aren’t immortal in life. Grimdark uses the death of characters to great effect and raises its stakes when no one is safe. Having said that - don’t do it lightly either. For the story or not at all. IMHO)

 

[Joshua Jones]

Star Wars fantasy tropes:

The quest to save the Princess
The chosen one scenario
The hero’s journey structure which is a fantasy trope and which Star Wars follows to the letter
Magical powers (The force is given no sf expanation in the way psi powers would)

It’s a fantasy set in space. What’s not to like

(As to the other - kill characters when it’s needed for you want to. People aren’t immortal in life. Grimdark uses the death of characters to great effect and raises its stakes when no one is safe. Having said that - don’t do it lightly either. For the story or not at all. IMHO)

@Onyx, Add to that the young peasant whose home is destroyed, meeting up with the old knight and fighting the latter's former friend who has become a dark knight under the influence of an evil sorcerer emperor, who also has a city (planet) destroying dragon (superweapon)... you gotta admit it is pretty much fantasy. Which, again, is fine. Nothing wrong with fantasy. I also have a high fantasy, mesoamerican WiP. Fantasy is good, just like SF.

And, to your point @Jo Zebedee, I am right there with you on killing off people for the sake of it. In my SF WiP, I kill off a very likable someone for the purpose of exploring grief in a young widow/mother who lives in a very different society than we do, as well as explore the way people compare others to idealized memories. So, yeah, there are massive plot implications for the death of her husband. Though anyone may die in my work, no one dies for no real reason. Except Givins (talked about in a submission to Critiques). Givins dies because his faction hates him and others like him.

 

[Onyx]

Star Wars fantasy tropes:

The quest to save the Princess
The chosen one scenario
The hero’s journey structure which is a fantasy trope and which Star Wars follows to the letter
Magical powers (The force is given no sf expanation in the way psi powers would)

It’s a fantasy set in space. What’s not to like

(As to the other - kill characters when it’s needed for you want to. People aren’t immortal in life. Grimdark uses the death of characters to great effect and raises its stakes when no one is safe. Having said that - don’t do it lightly either. For the story or not at all. IMHO)

The quest to save a princess is something fantasy stole from ancient history. Ransoming was normal for much of history, and Leia's rescue wasn't intended - they were going to Alderon.

Luke isn't the chosen one, and the special boy theme is common to Gundam, Dune, Ender's Game, Close Encounters, 2049. But Luke was not selected, he decided to go on a journey when the opportunity came up.

The Hero's Journey isn't a description of fantasy - it matches the plot points of most adventure stories, and was taken from heroic stories going back to the Greeks. Iliad, Raiders, Beowulf, etc.

Powers that seem like magic are common in SF: Dune, Akira, Gundam, Cryptonomicon, Vulcans.


Certainly modern fantasy has a fascination with those tropes, but it didn't invent them. It borrowed them from the Old Testament and stories of ancient heros like Achilles. I don't know why we give fantasy so much credit for owning stuff it lifted from previous sources.

Things that are truly peculiar to fantasy (though also borrowed from history):
Prophesy
Curses
Magical objects or weapons
Monsters with human sin motivations like greed or envy. (Why do dragons want that gold?)
World's with no logical connection to our own.
Medieval settings, political structures and technology


Star Wars has none of those. If Kate Middleton were abducted tomorrow, the effort to get her back wouldn't automatically be a "Fantasy".

So I don't get why people love to label a movie about a vaporator farmer and trained fighter pilot taking an electronic blueprint to the rebels while receiving martial arts instruction from a retired soldier makes the story a fantasy any more than any other adventure.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think we’ll agree to differ on this one.

 

[Onyx]

@Onyx, Add to that the young peasant whose home is destroyed, meeting up with the old knight and fighting the latter's former friend who has become a dark knight under the influence of an evil sorcerer emperor, who also has a city (planet) destroying dragon (superweapon)... you gotta admit it is pretty much fantasy. Which, again, is fine. Nothing wrong with fantasy. I also have a high fantasy, mesoamerican WiP. Fantasy is good, just like SF.

The death star isn't a dragon - it has no personality or will. It is an enormous device, there isn't much like that in fantasy.

"Princess", "Knight", "Soldier" are things we have in the modern world, as well as all their analogs - President, Commander, celebrity, etc. They aren't peculiar to fantasy.

Luke isn't a peasant. He's a pilot, adventurer, student and technology technician who owns his own speeder. He is relatively affluent.

This sounds more like forcing round pegs in square holes than what the actual story presents.