Self reflection and writing

[Alan Aspie]

Some writing gurus point that when problems with writing are hard or impossible to correct, the reason is often that writer does not handle the connection between him/herself and text.

Writer is his/her own memory bank, theme, creative processor, plot generator, character factory, supervisor, motivator... There is lots of things to pay attention. And if writer does not, his/her needs might take control over his creative and other working.

What kind of tools, methods, thinking... you use to manage the self reflection part of writing? Psycological? Historical? Situational? Moral? Thematic? Self management? Motivational? Others?

 

[tinkerdan]

It sounds like this advocates separating those out of your writing.

It's nigh impossible to separate all those things out of your writing and I'm not sure why anyone would do that. Those come from the Core where all your creative juices flow from. If you stave off that flow then you will have nothing but bland text on the page. Might be good for writing scientific method articles.

Of course I may have misunderstood and maybe you mean that you need to find ways to remove anything that is staving off the flow. That I'd agree with. The best way to do that is to 'know thy self' .

 

[Onyx]

I think a basic tool is to use a variety of methods to make notes on your story elements, and change those notes as necessary. That might be a timeline, a back story, character descriptions, interesting ideas, interesting dialogue, interestings descriptive prose. When you get struck, look at your various note collections - you may have already solved the problem.

 

[CTRandall]

If I understand you correctly, you're talking about stuff like having a character do what you want them to do, rather than what the character's history/motivations/psychology would suggest the character should do.

Sometimes, tnis is hard for me to catch and I find beta-readers are a huge help. My wife catches these kinds of things right away and tells me. I also read sections specifically looking at character behaviour, plot elements and pacing to see how they work. It takes some practice but I think I'm getting better at it. Maybe. Hopefully.

 

[Alan Aspie]

It sounds like this advocates separating those out of your writing.

Nothing like that.

maybe you mean that you need to find ways to remove anything that is staving off the flow.

A bit like that but not only that.

when problems with writing are hard or impossible to correct, the reason is often that writer does not handle the connection between him/herself and text.

To handle. To master. To work with skill and precision.

There is lots of things to pay attention. And if writer does not, his/her needs might take control over his creative and other working.

1. Example

Writer has a deep need to be loved. She makes protagonist an idealized version of herself. Boring. No story. No story because her needs took control over her creative working.

2. Example

Writer's hidden agenda against religion takes control in character development. He makes all atheist characters clever and their arguments good. He makes only religious main character not so clever and her arguments extremely stupid.

Book becomes propaganda because writers needs took control over his creative work.

3. Example

Writer has a narcissistic need to be seen as alfa being in imaginary intelligence dominance hierarchy. His writing becomes a way to highlight his own (imaginary) genius and shadowing everybody else. His needs...

So....

Writer can't use what he/she can't control. Writer can't use his needs. Needs use writer instead.

Writer needs first to be aware and then handle these needs if he wants to use them instead to be used by them.

Did this make it more clear?

 

[tinkerdan]

Actually this sound more like my psychology class than any sort of writer help/guide.

I'm not sure I need to go into analysis about why I make a character the way they are and why the practice religion the way they do.

My characters are the way they are because they need to be that way. My expression of the political, social and religious elements are there because they are part of the story.

Everything mentioned boils down to writing well or not.

If you write well, no matter where your build elements may rise from, then it all reads well. If you don't write well then it sounds choppy and forced and generally puts people off.

I personally think that psychoanalyzing needs to remain between you and the psychoanalyst.

And writing just has to be done well no matter where the material might be coming from.

But, hey: that's just me.

 

[Alan Aspie]

Actually this sound more like my psychology class than any sort of writer help/guide.

I personally think that psychoanalyzing needs to remain between you and the psychoanalyst.

This does have something to do with psychology, much more to do with social psychology and absolutely nothing to do with psychoanalyst.

There are professional "story doctors". Some are agents, some are editors, some help TV- and movie industry. Many, many, many of them say that when writing hits dead end the reason is very often that writer is not able to handle well things that are similar in his/her life and in the story.

Story begins with too perfect protagonist?
Protagonist is not active enough?
It is not story but propaganda?
Stupid and weak antagonists?
Storyworld is built around protagonist?
And so on and on and on and...

Second thing is that I am my best library and archive. If I don't know that knowledge bank and how to search I can't use it well.

Of course I may have misunderstood...

Your words, not mine.

Understanding might be easier if you pay attention to what professional gate keepers say about this.

 

[The Big Peat]

In fairness, some of the most feted stories ever written have been accused of being propaganda of a sort - and in some cases, the authors would agree.

Ditto for authors making idealised versions of themselves.

The trick is more making sure they're a good story as well rather than not doing it at all.

As for tools to make sure that's what you're doing and you're not getting carried away... sorry, I'm afraid that I don't have any.

 

[Shorewalker]

Story begins with too perfect protagonist?
Protagonist is not active enough?
It is not story but propaganda?
Stupid and weak antagonists?
Storyworld is built around protagonist?

In fairness, there can be many reasons for these problems, lack of imagination being one, lack of craft being another. My own personal 'blocks' wouldn't be the first thing I consider when I hit a snag.

 

[tinkerdan]

The problem is that we treat one gatekeepers opinion as gospel in a field that has...

Understanding might be easier if you pay attention to what professional gate keepers say about this.

..many gospels many churches and may pulpits and fluid notions about their absolutes.

 

[Alan Aspie]

The problem is that we treat one gatekeepers opinion as gospel in a field that has...

..many gospels many churches and may pulpits and fluid notions about their absolutes.

No it is not. At leas not between us.

The problem is that I am talking about good tools that have their place and it seems like you hear some imaginary talk about gospels and churches and...

If I said that a laptop is a good tool and someone else hear me telling that you can't write anything without laptop and you must pray your laptop and... Then the problem wouldn't be what I said but in the bias and extra content that interpreting (or what ever it is) puts there.

I will not take any responsibility about that. I maybe try to correct things that need it. But basically... If I say something and you broaden it to something else, I'm not interested. Sorry.

 

[The Judge]

I think there's been a simple failure of communication here, with metaphor being read as literal, so let's tone things down, please.


Alan, if I'm understanding you correctly, you think that a writer's personal hang-ups of whatever kind affect his writing. Well, since everything we are and think and believe affects our writing, it's inevitable that our demons should also get a word in edgewise. But that doesn't mean its necessarily a bad thing or to the writing's detriment. Nor, as far as I'm concerned, since I'm a pragmatist, do we need to spend time and energy contemplating our own navels working out what our issues are in order to defeat what you describe as "needs".

If someone writes a Mary Sue character -- as most of us do when we're starting off -- it may be because we ourselves want to be seen as brilliant and attractive and all the rest of it. But to my mind we don't need to undergo self-analysis and say "Hang on, I'm writing a wish-fulfilment character here because something is missing in my life, what can I do about this?" We simply have to stop p*ssing about and learn how to write proper characters. That comes from trial and error, from reading, thinking, critiquing, more reading, and above all, from writing.

For me, I don't need to list all my personal demons and then batten down the hatches on all of them to prevent their escape as I'm writing, I just have to write to the best of my ability, and make sure I continue to improve. Everything comes down to that. So if you're looking for techniques to help you, I'm afraid that's the only one I can offer.

 

[tinkerdan]

Respectfully I don't think so:

I think there's been a simple failure of communication here, with metaphor being read as literal, so let's tone things down, please.

The original post says
Some writing gurus...
With no references.
One or two links to these gurus might help open the discussion up.
Without references....

 

[The Judge]

That isn't what I meant, as I rather suspect you know full well.

 

[Onyx]

Honestly, I think this is another one of those approaches to "fixing" writers that really is about making a terrible writer merely bad, rather than allowing a good writer to be brilliant.

I think it is nice that our default impulse is to treat writing as an egalitarian pursuit, but it really is not from a publishing perspective. Very few people that want to write popular books have the aptitude. Failing to have the self awareness to realize that your personal biases are so strong that it spoils your writing is just another way that someone might lack aptitude, and it is probably paired with a number of other inabilities.

So while it is possible that these unnamed gurus might be onto something when it comes to all people that write, I rather doubt it has any practical application to the relatively tiny minority of people that could write well enough to get published.

 

[The Big Peat]

Honestly, I think this is another one of those approaches to "fixing" writers that really is about making a terrible writer merely bad, rather than allowing a good writer to be brilliant.

That makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Alan Aspie]

I think there's been a simple failure of communication here, with metaphor being read as literal, so let's tone things down, please.

I don't know about that. I clearly stated that...

Some writing gurus point that when problems with writing are hard or impossible to correct, the reason is often that writer does not handle the connection between him/herself and text.

So... It is clear that I am talking about one kind of problematic situations and them only.

If someone wants to interpret that this means everything else in the writing world, it is a discussion that does not interest me, has nothing to do with me and is also off topic.

Alan, if I'm understanding you correctly, you think that a writer's personal hang-ups of whatever kind affect his writing.

That happens but it is not what I was talking about.

I was talking about serious problems that are hard or impossible to correct and what some gurus tell about where to focus the problem solving.

This is just like if I was talking about serious car crash and what pros tell are usual reasons and if that has been read like if I was talking about normal driving where normal things happen. All that "normally this, normally that" is off topic. It has nothing to do with the topic.

For me, I don't need to list all my personal demons

Good.

Opening does not say a ward about "listing your personal demons" so I don't understand what is the link between that statement and this topic.

So if you're looking for techniques to help you, I'm afraid that's the only one I can offer.

Of course I am not. If I was I had said it.

I suppose that problem here is that I wrote something and many readers are reading something else.

There is not any hidden agenda, secret message between lines, absent but hinted things... And if anyone finds something like that, is has nothing to do with me or my writing.

But... There is a sitcom element. And I didn't write or seek it.

I'm off for now.

 

[sknox]

If a problem is impossible to correct, then advice on how to solve the problem is irrelevant. We're really talking about problems that are difficult to correct.

So, if I find myself in a situation where my personal demons (or angels) have created significant problems for the story in hand, how do I go about fixing that? The OP asked what our problem solving strategies are, but I confess I have none. I'm a little baffled by the notion of a connection between me and the text. Maybe I've never had such a problem, like a person who's never had stage fright. Some have it; some don't.

But when I imagine such a scenario, I'm stumped for solutions. By definition, if the problem is hard to fix, then the solution probably lies out of my reach. To whom would I turn? Most likely, an editor. That person would either identify the problem or would refer me to a specialist (e.g., a developmental editor), and together we'd try to get the story back on track.

I don't see how an author can catch the problem early. One would have to have a completed manuscript for anyone to be able to recognize an underlying psychological issue.

Finally, I don't do self-reflection in connection with my writing. I want to tell good stories well. That is a modest goal, surprisingly difficult to reach with consistency. I realize for others writing is deeply emotional and involves a good deal of soul searching. I wish them all the best, but it ain't my style,

 

[Phyrebrat]

I suppose that problem here is that I wrote something and many readers are reading something else.

If your words have been summarily misunderstood, isn’t that a failing on your part, not the comprehension of those who read your words? Clarity is crucial to writing.

There is not any hidden agenda, secret message between lines, absent but hinted things... And if anyone finds something like that, is has nothing to do with me or my writing.

Really? Nothing to do with the author? That comes across as a simplistic view of writing. As artists we have to give up our work and allow others to interpret what they will. The moment our words are read, they cease to exist in the vacuum of our own experiences but that of a community, with their own informative experiences and cultural capital.

Finally: what is it with all this snark and passive aggression on Chrons lately? Can we stop being so damn sensitive and touchy just because someone has a different opinion. This is the third thread I’ve read lately that’s full of mannerless or snappy behaviour and I’m sick of it. I might add this has come from newer members so just to clarify (albeit from a little no one like moi):

We don’t behave like that here.

pH

 

[Shorewalker]

So for the sake of clarity, what do you actually mean by...

'Some writing gurus point that when problems with writing are hard or impossible to correct, the reason is often that writer does not handle the connection between him/herself and text.'

What sort of problems are we discussing here? Dialogue? Plotting? Character arc? POV?

If we knew, we perhaps could better comment?