Self reflection and writing

[The Judge]

If someone wants to interpret that this means everything else in the writing world, it is a discussion that does not interest me, has nothing to do with me and is also off topic.

And if that happens, you thank the member concerned, then try and explain a little more carefully what it is you do want to talk about. We ask members to be courteous to each other, not abrupt and dismissive. And if a mod thinks a thread has gone off topic so that members need to be brought back into line, rest assured a mod will say as much, so no need to take this burden upon yourself.

I was talking about serious problems that are hard or impossible to correct and what some gurus tell about where to focus the problem solving.

But these issues to which you refer here

Story begins with too perfect protagonist?
Protagonist is not active enough?
It is not story but propaganda?
Stupid and weak antagonists?
Storyworld is built around protagonist?

aren't serious problems that are hard or impossible to correct. They are common problems which many writers face -- I can well imagine that most writers on Chrons have had to deal with at least one of these issues in their early writings.

The way to correct them is to identify what is wrong with the writing and deal with it. Protagonist not active -- give him something to do; stupid antagonist -- make him smarter. I fail to see what's so difficult about that once the problem is identified. Identifying the problem might itself be an issue, because we are all of us a little blind to our own work, but that's where critiquers and beta readers come in.

Opening does not say a ward about "listing your personal demons" so I don't understand what is the link between that statement and this topic.

Your second post refers to Writer has a deep need to be loved; Writer's hidden agenda against religion; Writer has a narcissistic need to be seen as alfa as being issues which create problems in the writing. And your posts suggest that the writer must understand he has these issues and guard against them infecting and taking over his writing -- Writer needs first to be aware and then handle these needs if he wants to use them instead to be used by them.

Instead of referring to deep need/hidden agenda/narcissistic need in my post, I was combining them into an all-purpose "personal demons" which I thought covered the bill. Since I don't personally have that deep need/hidden agenda/narcissistic need, it would have been impossible for me to refer to those specifics in the context of my own writing. Perhaps substitute "personal demons" with "psychological needs" if you think it makes for a better catch-all phrase. And by "listing" I was referring to your "first needs to be aware" ie thinking about and noting down one's needs.

And if you're not asking for techniques to avoid the psychological needs taking over the writing, I'm really not sure what "What kind of tools, methods, thinking... you use to manage the self reflection part of writing?" means or what the purpose of this thread actually is.

I suppose that problem here is that I wrote something and many readers are reading something else.

Unfortunately, that does indeed seem to be the case, but with all due respect, blaming those who are apparently misreading what you are attempting to say is not the way to progress the argument or your relationships within the Chrons community.

 

[The Big Peat]

I would gently suggest that if the problem is that you wrote something and that many readers are reading something else, the solution is to re-write it.

I'll confess - the reason my initial post was in response to such a small portion of your original post is that I didn't really grasp how you think managing self-reflection would make one a better writer. I got the bit about the link between writing failures and intruding ego - but from there, really quite lost.

 

[tinkerdan]

I still think this discussion requires a link:
However I can't find any that directly address the OP.

I do have this somewhat tangentally related item.
Perhaps as an example of giving a link to support a point.
Misunderstood Minds . Writing Difficulties | PBS
here's one closer to the topic
Self-Reflection: Getting to Know All About You(r Writing)
be careful of this one it asks more of you than you need to do to just read.
(PDF) The Scope of Writing Assessment
this is a good one
Self-reflection as a writer's tool | Tina Dubinsky Freelance Writer
good ole wike
Reflective writing - Wikipedia
https://www.gvsu.edu/cms4/asset/CC3...ative_writing_reflective_writing_gg_final.pdf
Still not finding those gurus
Short story self reflection - Creative Writing Fiction Short Story Self Reflection Chart Please think carefully and write detailed responses to the

https://www.gvsu.edu/cms4/asset/CC3..._writing_sample_reflective_writing_pieces.pdf

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07294360.2013.770434?src=recsys&journalCode=cher20

 

[Onyx]

I think all this abstract talk isn't serving anyone. If the OP has a problem with the way his writing is being understood, he should post his writing.

 

[Alan Aspie]

So for the sake of clarity, what do you actually mean by...

'Some writing gurus point that when problems with writing are hard or impossible to correct, the reason is often that writer does not handle the connection between him/herself and text.'

What sort of problems are we discussing here? Dialogue? Plotting? Character arc? POV?

If we knew, we perhaps could better comment?

Writing is a process. "Problems in writing" refers to process, not the text.

Dialog, plot, character arch... are part of the text. They are products of process but they are not process or part of it.

I had 3 examples. All of them pointed that I was talking about disturbances in working - not text, not results of work but work itself.

ADHD? You might need tools to manage your workflow. And you have to self reflect how you can or can't handle attention.

Not enough time to write? (I was talking about situational self reflection, you know.)

Motivation wears down in rewriting? (Yeah... There was something about motivational self reflection...)

Self management...

I am sorry but I don't have other tools but to tell what I am talking about.

 

[Alan Aspie]

I fail to see what's so difficult about that once the problem is identified. Identifying the problem might itself be an issue, because we are all of us a little blind to our own work, but that's where critiquers and beta readers come in.

If you can identify a risk before problems come, you might save months. If identifying risk takes only hours or days (and you get good knowledge & understanding while doing that.. Why not?

If you can identify problem when you are starting to do it, you can stop and correct your working in earlier stage. Saves time & effort.

If you can have tool to be less blind to your own work... Why not? (Not just text, but work itself.)

And to many of you: I am not mad, angry, passive or otherwise aggressive but frustrated.

 

[Onyx]

If you can identify a risk before problems come, you might save months. If identifying risk takes only hours or days (and you get good knowledge & understanding while doing that.. Why not?

If you can identify problem when you are starting to do it, you can stop and correct your working in earlier stage. Saves time & effort.

If you can have tool to be less blind to your own work... Why not? (Not just text, but work itself.)

And to many of you: I am not mad, angry, passive or otherwise aggressive but frustrated.

I continue to have no idea what the actual problem is.

 

[Alan Aspie]

I continue to have no idea what the actual problem is.

Never mind.

I suppose that talking about this was a huge mistake.

 

[Onyx]

Never mind.

I suppose that talking about this was a huge mistake.

Talking about it, no. Talking around it might be. Why don't you use an example?

 

[The Big Peat]

Writing is a process. "Problems in writing" refers to process, not the text.

Dialog, plot, character arch... are part of the text. They are products of process but they are not process or part of it.

I had 3 examples. All of them pointed that I was talking about disturbances in working - not text, not results of work but work itself.

ADHD? You might need tools to manage your workflow. And you have to self reflect how you can or can't handle attention.

Not enough time to write? (I was talking about situational self reflection, you know.)

Motivation wears down in rewriting? (Yeah... There was something about motivational self reflection...)

Self management...

I am sorry but I don't have other tools but to tell what I am talking about.

I suspect I have ADHD and it probably does interfere with my writing. I'm kinda plotting at the moment and I have five internet tabs and a book open on my computer screen.

For now I just go with the flow. Most people say they don't listen to music with words when they write as they know they're going to get distracted. Its possible I listen to music with words as that's an easy outlet for my need for constant simulation and one that goes with the writing if i get it right. But down the line, I might need a better solution.

As for motivation - again I turn to music. Songs that get me pumped up and realise every second I'm not writing better have a damn good use.

 

[tinkerdan]

So self-reflection is good: a tool to help identify otherwise hidden and unknown problems that have stopped your writing.

These things do not require this:

Story begins with too perfect protagonist?
Protagonist is not active enough?
It is not story but propaganda?
Stupid and weak antagonists?
Storyworld is built around protagonist?
And so on and on and on and...

Every one of these are a known problem and known quantity easily identifiable and equally easy to avoid or even for that matter to make use of when the time is right.
They do not qualify as something that has blocked the writing or brought it to a standstill unless you really haven't paid attention and learned about these simple things that creep into almost everyones writing.

They aren't show stoppers, they are opportunities. And they certainly don't qualify as parts of self reflection as defined in all of the articles I have found and offered in my last post.

 

[The Judge]

ADHD? You might need tools to manage your workflow. And you have to self reflect how you can or can't handle attention.

Not enough time to write? (I was talking about situational self reflection, you know.)

Motivation wears down in rewriting? (Yeah... There was something about motivational self reflection...)

Self management...

Yes, these are problems, and I can see how ADHD, lack of time, lack of motivation, and inability to self-manage will impede the ability to write -- though at least two of those (lack of time and motivation) are again very common issues most of us here will have struggled with at some time. What I can't see is how these relate to the examples you gave of eg the deep need to be loved and the too-perfect protagonist, nor how they create serious problems in the writing itself which are hard or impossible to correct. From my own experience, I'd have thought they'd have prevented any writing at all, rather than affecting its quality.

If you can identify a risk before problems come, you might save months. If identifying risk takes only hours or days (and you get good knowledge & understanding while doing that.. Why not?

Why not indeed. But I really don't think writing works like that.

If Writer A knows she has a deep psychological need to be loved, she might tell herself that she must avoid writing a Mary Sue creation who is perfect, but I'm pretty sure that when she writes her protagonist she won't actually see that it is a Mary Sue, because she's too close to it to recognise the problem. I don't have any needs, psychological or otherwise, concerning description of places, yet I still wasn't able to see that my first WiP was grossly lacking in description -- it took someone else to point it out to me. Learning to appraise one's own writing only comes after a lot of practice, and even then we still need others' eyes to see what is under our nose, which is why we have critique groups and beta readers.

Besides, whatever one writes, unless one is a genius, months and months will be spent re-writing it -- so I very much doubt if any time would be saved if one did try and assess one's psychological needs to eliminate problems in advance.

When you started this thread, I wasn't sure if you were trying to seek help for yourself -- in which case it's simplest if we know the actual problem confronting another member so we can be specific in our advice -- but your "Of course I am not. If I was I had said it." makes it clear you didn't. If, instead, you started it just by way of general interest because the subject intrigues you, then I agree with tinkerdan that it would help if you could point us to specific articles you have read where these issues have been raised, as that might remove the elements of misunderstanding which have arisen here.

 

[Alan Aspie]

I suspect I have ADHD and it probably does interfere with my writing.

For now I just go with the flow.

...easy outlet for my need for constant simulation and one that goes with the writing if i get it right.

...I might need a better solution.

As for motivation...

realise every second I'm not writing better have a damn good use.

There we have very good example of useful self reflection connected to directing attention and self management.

 

[Alan Aspie]

When you started this thread, I wasn't sure if you were trying to seek help for yourself

I'm a Finn and male. We don't seek help. We try to help if we can but we don't seek help. And it is totally impossible to me to understand that anyone thinks that I am seeking help for myself here. I have not said that I am doing that.

IF we do, we tell it. "I need help in this and that..."

I am autistic. I have been working years with autistic self management, identity work and so on. That means I have a bloody big toolbox with these things. And there are many tools that can help somebody else - a lot.

I see all the time "I need help with this and that..." threads where problems are rooted to connection between writers self, writers identity work and his/her writing work. That is why I thought that maybe there is need for general and generalising discussion about this topic.

There are moral - and sometimes normative - bounders in messing around someones self, identity and so on. But everybody can do it him/herself. And usually it is very helpful to do it.

When I started this thread I thought that if I point out all the time that this is about writing (not text but writing) and self reflection (not self but reflecting) everyone will of course understand that topic is dynamic, not substantial. My mistake, sorry. And then I made it worse by using examples that contain substance. And focus shifted even more off topic. Sorry.

I would be very happy if moderators locked this thread.

And now I know what part of helping others is absolutely forbidden here. Will not happen again.

And I hope someone else notices also tragicomical connection between topic and reactions.

I think it is best to me if I don't answer any more to anything about this topic. No use, no point, no hope.

 

[Onyx]

I'm a Finn and male. We don't seek help. We try to help if we can but we don't seek help. And it is totally impossible to me to understand that anyone thinks that I am seeking help for myself here. I have not said that I am doing that.

IF we do, we tell it. "I need help in this and that..."

I am autistic. I have been working years with autistic self management, identity work and so on. That means I have a bloody big toolbox with these things. And there are many tools that can help somebody else - a lot.

I see all the time "I need help with this and that..." threads where problems are rooted to connection between writers self, writers identity work and his/her writing work. That is why I thought that maybe there is need for general and generalising discussion about this topic.

There are moral - and sometimes normative - bounders in messing around someones self, identity and so on. But everybody can do it him/herself. And usually it is very helpful to do it.

When I started this thread I thought that if I point out all the time that this is about writing (not text but writing) and self reflection (not self but reflecting) everyone will of course understand that topic is dynamic, not substantial. My mistake, sorry. And then I made it worse by using examples that contain substance. And focus shifted even more off topic. Sorry.

I would be very happy if moderators locked this thread.

And now I know what part of helping others is absolutely forbidden here. Will not happen again.

And I hope someone else notices also tragicomical connection between topic and reactions.

I think it is best to me if I don't answer any more to anything about this topic. No use, no point, no hope.

That's a rather dramatic reply. Between English as your second language, Asperger's and a completely unfamiliar set of ideas and nomenclature, most of us just couldn't tell what you were talking about and to what end. No one is rejecting you.

Clearly this topic is of some value in your life, but every personal philosophy doesn't apply universally, especially when the delivery isn't crystal clear, and then you let your frustration at us make you combative because we weren't getting this very personal perspective of yours. I'd recommend dropping the hurt feelings and chalk this up to the limits of written language. This is no more of a crisis than no one laughing at a joke.

 

[The Judge]

Clearly you are very well versed in issues to do with autism, and you have spent a great deal of time reflecting on this and how it might impact on your writing. I dare say there are many members here who have fought similar battles. But just as in any topic, those who know what they are talking about do not always appreciate how opaque their writing is to those who have not undergone the same experiences/learning/research. That opacity invariably leads to misunderstandings.

And now I know what part of helping others is absolutely forbidden here. Will not happen again.

We welcome any attempt by anyone to help any of our members. Nothing of the kind is forbidden. But if there are misunderstandings we ask that members take a deep breath, respect the opinions of other members, and generally try to come to a place where there is understanding of some kind.

 

[tinkerdan]

This could still be cleared up with references and links to the Gurus the OP mentioned.
Once we read the articles I'm sure that a lot of things would be cleared up.

As it stands right now we're getting second hand knowledge which I would be happy to examine along with the references to where the original thought came from.

 

[sknox]

Ad fontes! Or so it was drilled into me in grad school. (it means, to the sources)

 

[Graymalkin]

I see all the time "I need help with this and that..." threads where problems are rooted to connection between writers self, writers identity work and his/her writing work. That is why I thought that maybe there is need for general and generalising discussion about this topic.

I am autistic. I have been working years with autistic self management, identity work and so on. That means I have a bloody big toolbox with these things. And there are many tools that can help somebody else - a lot.

Hello Alan. You touch on a very interesting area. To echo the call made by several members on this thread. I would appreciate it if you would be willing to post up some of these tools. I'm pretty sure there are others besides myself who would be interested. To begin with specifics would help stimulate the general discussion you mention.

There are bits and bobs around Chrons - The Toolbox -- Free For All and The Toolbox -- The Important Bits which are useful and diverse takes on widely recognised issues, (probably more text than writing, if I understand your process versus substance distinction correctly.) But even then, I find they take some wading through if you're looking for something specific.

So the idea of a toolbox in list format (even if only consisting of links,) makes a lot of sense to me.

Something like @tinkerdan provided - but in a dedicated sub-forum perhaps ...

I do have this somewhat tangentally related item.
Perhaps as an example of giving a link to support a point.
Misunderstood Minds . Writing Difficulties | PBS
here's one closer to the topic
Self-Reflection: Getting to Know All About You(r Writing)
be careful of this one it asks more of you than you need to do to just read.
(PDF) The Scope of Writing Assessment
this is a good one
Self-reflection as a writer's tool | Tina Dubinsky Freelance Writer
good ole wike
Reflective writing - Wikipedia
https://www.gvsu.edu/cms4/asset/CC3...ative_writing_reflective_writing_gg_final.pdf
Still not finding those gurus
Short story self reflection - Creative Writing Fiction Short Story Self Reflection Chart Please think carefully and write detailed responses to the

https://www.gvsu.edu/cms4/asset/CC3..._writing_sample_reflective_writing_pieces.pdf

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07294360.2013.770434?src=recsys&journalCode=cher20

There's nothing to stop me from spending my life in the Googleverse, - and it is definitely interesting - but it gets kind of lonely and can quickly become an endless horizon. To share resources, potentially save each other swathes of time and share POV is priceless. If I've missed something already present on Chrons, I would not be surprised. This place is quite a maze (ing.)

 

[Alan Aspie]

1. Hello Alan.

2. You touch on a very interesting area.

3. I would appreciate it if you would be willing to post up some of these tools. I'm pretty sure there are others besides myself who would be interested.

1. Hello Graymalkin.

2. Yes, I did.

And most of the books about writing seem to pay this topic a lot of interest.

3. Thanks but no thanks. I'm done with this topic here.

It is easy and fruitfull to write about it elsewhere and impossible to write about it here. So I go elsewhere if I want to talk about it.

If you are interested: Google. Books about writing. (How to beat writers block, how to manage working, how to distance him/herself from text so that editing is good, character building, how to become better writer... everything seems to turn this directiion.) Other boards...

I lost my interest to this here. I'm done.