This Horse ain't Dead! Info-dumping, Exposition, Appendices, etc...

...which is why I encouraged the OP to post an example of where weighty exposition seems necessary, as well as anyone who has a theory to illustrate it in a concrete manner.

That in and of itself regarding my story would be difficult to do without presenting a considerable amount of content to demonstrate 'here is this' (confusing and extreme)- and "here is that to help understand it." For that if anyone was truly interested I could point them to the unrevised forum post (elsewhere).

What I could do here I suppose is offer up a synopsis (stating the dominating event/theme of a few chapters), to even posting a few short paragraphs of what I call 'historical or info-dump' chapters so they could be judged as to whether they are -alternative timeline stories- or -facts and figures-.

Thanks again everyone!

K2
 
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That in and of itself regarding my story would be difficult to do without presenting a considerable amount of content to demonstrate 'here is this' (confusing and extreme)- and "here is that to help understand it." For that if anyone was truly interested I could point them to the unrevised forum post (elsewhere).

What I could do here I suppose is offer up a synopsis (stating the dominating event/theme of a few chapters), to even posting a few short paragraphs of what I call 'historical or info-dump' chapters so they could be judged as to whether they are -alternative timeline stories- or -facts and figures-.

Thanks again everyone!

K2
You could also just post some of the action without the background to see how incomprehensible it is, and work back from there.
 
You could also just post some of the action without the background to see how incomprehensible it is, and work back from there.

Okay... Though I'll put this in quotes so as not to waste peoples time. This is a ROUGH (in that it has already (elsewhere) been compressed some, grammar issues addressed, and been improved regarding readability). A previous section one of those describing vaguely what has happened to the world, and the change in America (compression of the population, and institution of the 'Agricultural System.'

Sound files have been linked instead of imbedded due to imagery.

Most of you, I'd suggest not wasting your time with this.

K2


Into the Land of Madness:
The moment the turnstile opened into the other side of the massive wall, all of Cub’s senses were assailed like he could have never imagined.

On the Fertile side, it was so crowded that vehicles had trouble moving through the old unused streets. Even walking through the crowds was an exercise in pausing and bumping. Here on this side of the wall, the numbers of people vastly exceeded that on the other as the sea of humanity seemed to fill every inch of ground, hung out of every window and leaned over every roof.

Though it was hot everywhere year round since the world had supposedly tipped on its axis; here due to the vast numbers of people, high walls and buildings blocking the wind, it seemed twenty degrees hotter. Cub began to sweat from the heat let alone his already tested nerves.

His own perspiration instantly cued him in on the musty smell of unwashed millions. Dust drifting everywhere, undoubtedly their stinking sloughed off skin. It was not just the smell of filthy people themselves, yet all that they generated. It smelled like an open sewer in that he could see people up along the edge of the wall urinating, even defecating upon it.

There was the rot of garbage, worst of all, that of decomposing human bodies, bloated, in varied shades of green. Stepped over or walked around, eventually they would flatten enough to be walked upon. Their gore ground down adding to the greasy dust. Smoke was everywhere, most of it oily and putrid along with the fumes that everything seemed to generate.

Most of the people this side of the wall wore the pastel poly-paper jumpsuits that could be found in heaps everywhere. Many people wore sandals made from the treads of tires tied onto their feet with strips torn from other jumpsuits, that is if they wore any at all. Pink, green and yellow everywhere; though they were all the same, people had ripped and retied them attempting to grant themselves some semblance of fashion he supposed.

Those entering through the gate were dressed in traditional clothing, nothing impressive, mostly old t-shirts, shorts or pants, and common footwear. That said, it quickly became evident why some people living here, wore a mish-mash of styles. As soon as they passed the gate, he saw a man and woman swarmed over and stripped, simply for what they wore by a mob of tattooed men.

Confusing at first, Cub finally realized the din was so great he could barely hear. As he tried to fix upon one of a million sounds, finally one overpowered them all as he was given something to focus upon; the ringing in his ears becoming a clear voice.

"Cubby, put these on now!" shouted Rokka-Kae jamming his gun, batons and belt into his gut.

"My name is not--" as Rokka-Kae cut him off once more.

"I know what your name is, now shut up and listen! Stay near me and watch what I do and do what I say instantly or you will die here. Do you hear me? Pay attention to ‘me’ now, not them!"

Rokka-Kae yelled at Cub realizing how overwhelming someone’s first time in the Pastoral zone would be. Regardless, not even knowing what this was all about; he found it radically startling. In the brief few seconds he had looked around, Rokka-Kae had already put her own gun-belt, shifted her hand to her ear with her communication-set or "comms’ " in it, and began to speak.

"Central Dispatch," Kae began looking up to the large putrid-green Soviet font characters above the gate. "Close gate Thirteen-R inbound."

‘Roger Reaper-379… Thirteen-R inbound gate is now closed.’

"You! What did I tell you! Go back home now! Go back or die!" Rokka-Kae instantly began yelling as she stormed through the crowd toward a young couple pulling along a child.

Pushing and shoving her way through, the man and woman looked at each other, abruptly pulling the child in different directions. The man pulled toward the gate, the woman pulling toward the city. When her husband relented, she won the tug of war. In just a moment, she was already deeper into the crowd.

Rokka-Kae did not hesitate. Drawing one of her pistols, she fired sending two rounds into the woman’s back, passing through the woman also taking down three others in front of her. In a flash Rokka-Kae was up on the child who fell with his mother, pinning him with her foot, stepping on his back as she shouted at the man.

"Take him home now!" The man in a panic instead bolted. In an instant, Rokka-Kae had shot him also taking out a woman in front of the man in the process.

"Cub! Grab him and hold him!" Kae shouted as she stepped off the child and turned shoving her way into the crowd once again.

Cub however just stood there in shock as Rokka-Kae pushed her way enraged toward another couple shouting at them. When they turned to run toward the city, she cut them down along with two other bystanders as well. Racing up to that child grabbing it up by one arm, she turned back toward Cub literally shoving the child at him speaking into her comms’.

"Central… Gate Thirteen-R, sound the siren!"

It was then Rokka-Kae noticed as Cub fumbled for the second child that the first child was already long gone, scooped up by someone in the crowd. Suddenly the low threatening growl of an air-raid siren began to rise sounding at the gate. Once up to speed its raspy wail was deafening.



"Damn it Cub! You lost the first, hold this one tight!

"Central… Cancel the siren at Gate Thirteen-R. Sound the horn three-cycles!"

‘Roger Reaper-379… Horn sounding in three, two…’



Rokka-Kae yanked Cub’s hands off the child, trapping it instead with her knees and slammed Cub’s hands up to his own ears, quickly covering her own. Unexpected, more so stunning, a blare from a deep booming horn that shook Cub’s body to the core sounded. The resonant foreboding sound seemed to come from everywhere as though the horn of Gabriel himself was calling down.

Instantly people dropped covering their ears in agony. Although Cub’s ears were covered, it was still so loud and resounding, that he was urged to do the same. The horn sounded for two more tones, each equally debilitating. The second the last blast ceased, Rokka-Kae shoved the child at Cub, instantly moving into action as the masses recovered.

Reaching to the back of her belt, even though she had sounded both the siren and horn warning of a Reaper near, she heaved up into the air a small puck that just as it began to fall exploded generating a black spherical cloud of smoke. The final warning to all that could see it. A "Visual Alert" that a Reaper was harvesting.

Cub just barely noticed what Rokka-Kae had fixed upon as she drew both of her pistols and began firing. Even the deafening noise had not stopped a group of six similarly tattooed men from attacking another couple, trying to pry their child away that they fought to keep. In a moment those men, the couple and three bystanders were down.

A second later she was firing into the back of another pair of men pulling along a child. Then another woman carrying a child as she tried to flee toward the city, not the gate.

Quickly there was a reply to Rokka-Kae’s slaughter. This group or individual began firing back at her with their old beat up weapons. It was amazing how far from their mark rounds would strike as they tried to kill her before she would turn on them in response. Bystanders all around Rokka-Kae, more so those people shooting at her falling by the dozen.

In perhaps thirty seconds, it was over. Most of the people had fled, yet the ward was so crowded, that others who had not even been there began to flood into the area.

Cub was in shock as he noticed Rokka-Kae approaching him having gathered up three children by their wrists; all but dragging them to him as she turned round looking for others. Already it was too late as the crowd had begun refilling the area obscuring any others there. Cub began screaming, though Rokka-Kae simply ignored him for the moment continuing her work.

"What have you done! You murdered all of those people and you killed all of these children’s parents, are you insane? You’ll die for this Reaper! You just slaughter people without reason!"

"Central Dispatch… Send three Planters through the gate to my location immediately. Four Mics for pickup, possibly others. Also send Salvage. Approximately thirty for composting, they’ll not be marked."

‘Affirmative Reaper-379… Planters should be through the gate and at your location in fifteen seconds, Salvage dispatched.’

Almost immediately, a second voice from Central called over Rokka-Kae’s comms’.

‘Reaper-379, Central Dispatch… How much longer should the Ward Thirteen-R gate remain closed, over?’

"Central… Open Gate Thirteen-R in thirty seconds. Note Reaper 3-7-9 has arrived with the package intact and will not be marking and logging any harvest until further notice."

‘Roger Reaper-379… Package on station, logging offline.’

"You’re insane, a psychotic killer!" Cub shouted just as three people in full armor rushed up, literally putting leashes on the children and began pulling them toward the gate with their weapons drawn. "You had no reason to kill those people, and whatever this is I’m done with it now!"

"None huh? And if you’re done then fine, go. Enjoy living in the Thirteenth-R till you’re dead which will likely be in just a few minutes, but you can’t get back through the gate."

"What do you mean I can’t get back through? I’m--"

"I told you before Cub. I know who you are, in fact I know all about you. I even know about that little paper you wrote, your fancy speech and your big plans having no idea how the world really is… ****ing Circus fool.

"Anyway, unless you have a child of your own to take back through, or a child in the Fertile zone, or a pass, you aren’t going anywhere. Well I suppose you could go to the Q, M or S but I doubt you’ll make it, they’re worse."

By that point, Cub was sobbing into his hands just as he began to retch and vomit. Everything that she had done was so pointless. Even now, as the gate opened, more parents with children were pouring in. Rokka-Kae just stood there a moment until he was finished, then yanked him up by his arm simply saying; "stay right next to me."
 
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Okay... Though I'll put this in quotes so as not to waste peoples time. This is a ROUGH (in that it has already (elsewhere) been compressed some, grammar issues addressed, and been improved regarding readability). A previous section one of those describing vaguely what has happened to the world, and the change in America (compression of the population, and institution of the 'Agricultural System.'
Okay, that was all comprehensible on its own. What's the problem?
 
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Okay, that was all comprehensible on its. What's the problem?

If you meant to say 'on its own,' yes, it is. However, since it continues on the brutality, disregard for life, and worse, all sanctioned and in fact generated alone by the government along with all else you encounter... eventually reaches a point of why, for what reason. It actually has very good reason, though bad. Those reasons need to be explained somewhere.

K2
 
If you meant to say 'on its own,' yes, it is. However, since it continues on the brutality, disregard for life, and worse, all sanctioned and in fact generated alone by the government along with all else you encounter... eventually reaches a point of why, for what reason. It actually has very good reason, though bad. Those reasons need to be explained somewhere.

K2
They need to be explained in the narrative as part of the plot. If that level of violence isn't the motivation for a plot line that addresses reversing its root causes, why are you making people read that?
 
I ought to have been more precise. There's no way for the writer to know as he is writing. There are no tips that will guide his steps aright the first time.

You and I agree: the only course is to write, fail, and write again.
 
If you meant to say 'on its own,' yes, it is. However, since it continues on the brutality, disregard for life, and worse, all sanctioned and in fact generated alone by the government along with all else you encounter... eventually reaches a point of why, for what reason. It actually has very good reason, though bad. Those reasons need to be explained somewhere.

K2
I am with @Onyx on this one. When I read something dystopian like this, half the point is to follow the story, and half the point is to guess what made things like this from little hints dropped until the big reveal. If I were reading this and I saw a chapter breaking down how things got this bad, I would probably put the book down right there.

I have to reiterate this. Guessing what happened is half the enjoyment of a story like this, so if you take that guessing away, I would stop reading the book.

Otherwise, it seems somewhat interesting. I would keep on reading from here.
 
I would just add, that all the advice about what to do to make a good novel sounds good to me, and i am listening to that advice too.

However I can't help thinking, isn't there also a small chance that your (or someone's) real forte actually is world-building, and somewhere out there someday will come a work that presents the world and its building in a new, unique and original way - it won't be a novel at all, but will present its 'story' (such as there is) in some intriguing, non-linear, sometimes baffling but ultimately compelling new way.

And/or someone (game developer?) will come along searching for a new world/scenario and instant back story, and you can supply it...
 
Okay, so the subsequent posts since my last one I have read, and each and every post is being considered on its own merit, and as a whole. Everyone's contribution is helpful, well thought out and insightful, and I thank you all.

Simply to round this out (though I'd not suggest anyone take the time), I've added a portion of the initial info dump wedged in between chapters, so any who wonder what I meant in my statements can see something tangible.

Once again, this is a rough (grammar, punctuation, phrasing), and information from it and the rest are already being incorporated into 2028 (this from 2029). As I do so, I chop that out, and when I get through 2028 I'll see what is left. It also is rather vague, to get a complete picture (when 2029 was the only work), would take not only all of the chapters of 'dumping,' yet also those of the story.

Thanks again everyone!

K2

.
Crush of Humanity ***:
The world had changed so much in Rokka-Kae’s lifetime, none of it for the better. The governments influenced by the Super Corporations or "Super-Corps" that secretly all but owned them; claimed that the earth had shifted on its axis.

Though long forgotten and propagandized out of history, at the end of the "Mad Clown’s" reign, the truth of the matter was they had killed the world to obtain the power they now had.

Pollution alone had done most of the work in that to save pennies today, they’d sacrifice the planet having no concern for tomorrow. Profit and power their Gods, in the end poisoning the land, air and waters. Once the environment had begun to die, Nature itself began to fight back, retaliating by ceasing its bounty to purge itself of the destructive organism, man.

That was when the great crush began during what would be called "the Great Reckoning." People by the millions fled the withering farmlands and forests as the plants and animals began to perish like some scorched earth policy instituted by Nature itself. Naturally, the seas followed suit.

As rural and wilderness regions were evacuated, the cities swelled to a point of bursting. When they could no longer contain the pressure from within, like some great rotting beast they would swell then burst, spilling their contents around them over and again.

Like some ironic joke, the federal government sent word throughout the nation. "Get to the Bos-Wash megaregion now or be cut off," claiming that they could no longer assist anyone beyond it. So they came. Came by the hundreds of millions inspiring someone to finally give what was happening a name; "the Gathering."

Once the people filled the region, mankind was plagued with famine and disease. True to human nature, instead of naturally reducing their numbers, they instead endured. So the bloat continued.

It was debatable if it was Nature or their fellowman that caused the mass die-offs however. When bellies were empty, all of the remaining food vanished. When plagues and diseases ran rampant, overnight there was no medicine or health care. Well, for the poor at least, and the poor almost overnight had swollen to 99.9% of the population.

Indomitable as they were however, humans found a way. It was amazing what one could eat and survive. If that did not hit back at the natural order hard enough, they began developing natural immunities to even the most insidious of diseases. The government pressured by the masses compounded the problem, refusing to listen to the scientists and philosophers.

As the nations quickly became welfare states, priority services like better housing, food and utilities were given to families. More so, the larger the family, the better the services. So, what did the people do in response?

They bred. Bred like Rabbits that at least had the decency to become extinct. All just for a little bigger home, a drop more of water or one extra bite of food, let alone the extra money, that final aspect simply exacerbated the problem. With no work, their needs met, now having disposable income, instead of improving their lot toward self-sufficiency or their hordes of offspring’s futures, they turned to vice.

More smoking and drinking until that was gone. Then more drugs and sex, and the more they got the more they wanted. To that end in their infinite wisdom, the government had a solution. Ban smoking, drinking, drugs and recreational sex not seeing the possible assistance they offered in thinning the herd. Where the government failed the people, organized crime stepped in to help those in need.

On it went as the invulnerability of humans, coupled with their bad decisions, caused their numbers to swell like spores pouring forth out of some toxic mold. When the region refused to become larger, humans even had an answer for that. It simply became denser.

So it went, that is until Cletus T. Prusser, who ironically was the last person to hold office as the Secretary of Agriculture, though not surprisingly, the last appointee of the "Mad Clown," had his inspirational moment.

Staring at an old painting hanging in his office as he often did now having nothing else to do, an idyllic scene of early Nineteenth-Century farm life entitled "Harvest Time," he was struck with an idea.

The government needed to cultivate the cities just like a farmer did the land. The parcels should be considered fields. More importantly, they needed to view the populace as crops. The first step was they needed to determine which crops produced the highest yield, progressively separating them.
 
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Okay, so the subsequent posts since my last one I have read, and each and every post is being considered on its own merit, and as a whole. Everyone's contribution is helpful, well thought out and insightful, and I thank you all.

Simply to round this out (though I'd not suggest anyone take the time), I've added a portion of the initial info dump wedged in between chapters so any who wonder what I meant in my statements. Once again, this is a rough (grammar, punctuation, phrasing), and information from it and the rest are already being incorporated into 2028 (this from 2029). As I do so, I chop that out, and when I get through 2028 I'll see what is left. It also is rather vague, to get a complete picture (when 2029 was the only work), would take not only all of the chapters of 'dumping,' yet also those of the story.

Thanks again everyone!

K2
I must say that isn't really an "info dump", as it suggests lots of things but doesn't actually tell us anything about how anything occurred. For instance, it doesn't really make sense for people to move toward cities when things are getting bad, unless there is some particular set of problems with rural areas or some attraction to the cities. But you really aren't saying what that mechanism is.

What you did write sounds more like a sermon assigning blame, not a history describing cause or method. There is little info in you info dump.
 
I would just add, that all the advice about what to do to make a good novel sounds good to me, and i am listening to that advice too.

However I can't help thinking, isn't there also a small chance that your (or someone's) real forte actually is world-building, and somewhere out there someday will come a work that presents the world and its building in a new, unique and original way - it won't be a novel at all, but will present its 'story' (such as there is) in some intriguing, non-linear, sometimes baffling but ultimately compelling new way.

And/or someone (game developer?) will come along searching for a new world/scenario and instant back story, and you can supply it...
This is pretty much what I was musing about here:
Borges and the trivialization of SFF worlds.
 
I must say that isn't really an "info dump", as it suggests lots of things but doesn't actually tell us anything about how anything occurred. For instance, it doesn't really make sense for people to move toward cities when things are getting bad, unless there is some particular set of problems with rural areas or some attraction to the cities. But you really aren't saying what that mechanism is.

What you did write sounds more like a sermon assigning blame, not a history describing cause or method. There is little info in you info dump.


Yes well, again, that's just a portion. At that stage of the story, I didn't want to explain everything, just simply that the people had 'a reason' to crowd into the Bos-Wash, immediately they're not being taken care of, and what follows in that chapter was an explanation of Cletus Prusser's bright idea, the 'Agricultural System' of population management.

That's all. That's all the reader needs to know to now make sense of everything else. Actually, for quite a few chapters. Then there is another, again just as limited... more chapters, and so on. What it leaves out are all of the surprises that happen throughout the story.

HOWEVER... the characters must deal with the consequences of those bits. So, as an example about the time someone should be asking 'well, why not just leave the city?' The answer then comes in the form of what is outside is uninhabitable, because of... and so on.

So they were written as a parallel storyline ten years prior. Each written much like a story within the story, only feeding enough info so that 'this bad thing now seems the lesser of two evils.'

K2
 
Yes well, again, that's just a portion. At that stage of the story, I didn't want to explain everything, just simply that the people had 'a reason' to crowd into the Bos-Wash, immediately they're not being taken care of, and what follows in that chapter was an explanation of Cletus Prusser's bright idea, the 'Agricultural System' of population management.

That's all. That's all the reader needs to know to now make sense of everything else. Actually, for quite a few chapters. Then there is another, again just as limited... more chapters, and so on. What it leaves out are all of the surprises that happen throughout the story.

HOWEVER... the characters must deal with the consequences of those bits. So, as an example about the time someone should be asking 'well, why not just leave the city?' The answer then comes in the form of what is outside is uninhabitable, because of... and so on.

So they were written as a parallel storyline ten years prior. Each written much like a story within the story, only feeding enough info so that 'this bad thing now seems the lesser of two evils.'

K2
I believe I see what you are going for. Why not work this into the narrative, though? Presumably such a state would control the media and have a pretty well funded propaganda arm. Have a character interact with some of this propaganda. Maybe have a movie playing somewhere about the horrors of life outside the region, or a romance about a heroine living in danger and poverty encounters a man from within the region and finds love and a better life. Have a state newscast reporting about someone who wandered out of the region and met a horrific fate, "dispite the best efforts of rescue teams". In my mind, this seems to be a far more effective way of getting the same information across.

In other words, why this format? The information itself isn't so much of a problem to me, but why does it need to be presented this way?
 
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I believe I see what you are going for. Why not work this into the narrative, though? Presumably such a state would control the media and have a pretty well funded propaganda arm. Have a character interact with some of this propaganda. Maybe have a movie playing somewhere about the horrors of life outside the region, or a romance about a heroine living in danger and poverty encounters a man from within the region and finds love and a better life. Have a state newscast reporting about someone who wandered out of the region and met a horrific fate, "dispite the best efforts of rescue teams". In my mind, this seems to be a far more effective way of getting the same information across.
I agree. I don't see anything here so complex that it needs to be separated from the narrative. I don't think this material would be so challenging that it is going to require more than passing mention.

And I don't think the "preachy" language does anything but make the dumps longer while batting the reader over the head for their complicity in destroying this near future.
 
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I believe I see what you are going for. Why not work this into the narrative, though? Presumably such a state would control the media and have a pretty well funded propaganda arm. Have a character interact with some of this propaganda. Maybe have a movie playing...[etc.]... In other words, why this format? The information itself isn't so much of a problem to me, but why does it need to be presented this way?

The 'propaganda' aspect we've already broached. The point of it being to; get the people to forget pre-2020 events, to not trust any news (so as to not look for it and ignore it), and to be forced to have to focus every second of their existence into surviving and forgetting (forgetting their past, even yesterday... burying their misery of the day, and not looking to the future).

Past that, movies, radio and even press won't be happening for some time (due to the agricultural system and policy of erasure). The people struggle to get water, food, find a place to sleep and avoid violence every moment of their lives. Though a bit of a spoiler,
the 63% have been reduced to cattle. Hence why it is called a 'Pastoral Zone' (pasture).

K2
 
Is the horse dead yet? :p

For myself? No... I have a bit more whuppin' to do on it until I get 'my' issues sorted out. Everyone else's arms I suspect are tired of beating this one.

So with that I'll say, thanks again everyone!

K2
 
The 'propaganda' aspect we've already broached. The point of it being to; get the people to forget pre-2020 events, to not trust any news (so as to not look for it and ignore it), and to be forced to have to focus every second of their existence into surviving and forgetting (forgetting their past, even yesterday... burying their misery of the day, and not looking to the future).

Past that, movies, radio and even press won't be happening for some time (due to the agricultural system and policy of erasure). The people struggle to get water, food, find a place to sleep and avoid violence every moment of their lives. Though a bit of a spoiler,
the 63% have been reduced to cattle. Hence why it is called a 'Pastoral Zone' (pasture).

K2
People aren't cattle - there is nothing to "graze", and they generally aren't stupid enough to believe that the government is going to be able to feed everyone if they all move to a small part of the East Coast.

If your purpose is to write SF, your readers are going to at least desire a vaguely rational story line. But you've reduced the intelligence of an entire nation to that of the cheerleader that takes a shower in the middle of a horror movie. Given that level of fantasy, followed by everyone then being unable to remember and discuss events of just a few years prior, why are you even concerned about offering detailed explanations to the reader? None of this is remotely realistic - if you want to write a story like this, just write it as allegory or fantasy, because world building is not going to satisfy even a young adult SF reader, and it is too violent for younger children.


The classic infodump problem comes from stories that are set in complex world histories or technology systems and might be hard to follow otherwise. You seem to want to use exposition to set the reader up with a back story that they won't buy into, no matter how detailed you make it.
 
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@Onyx ; I suppose I could explain and debate every bit of it here, of which it is all based upon historical president, such situations not uncommon in the least. Or, I can devote my time to using the pertinent advice contained in this thread to better my writing, write, and as @sknox suggests let the publishing results, no matter the format, be the judge.

So, I'll opt for the latter being more than satisfied with the storyline as it stands.

The one line that I believed you missed when back-quoting some of my initial posts here being 'that it was crucial for me to make the existing storyline of Fargo (2000AD work) credible and realistic.' I'm satisfied that I accomplished that in spades.

Thanks again for your input.

K2
 
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