Game of Thrones: 8.05 - The Bells

[Venusian Broon]

I suppose Brienne was pledged to stay with Sansa.
One confounding thing is , of all the loose ends, are Sansa and Brienne coming to KL or KL Dragon Pit , or something in or near KL for a Pow Wow?
I guess they are the most important characters not in the South right now.
But there are others, Yara .... why bring her back for one episode?
Bronn seems screwed right now... Dany aint gonna give him Highgarden
Edmure Tully .....Tobias Menzies was supposedly on set for S8 at some time.
A bunch of characters in Essos, story line in Essos.
With 80 min. left I don't think much fixing can be done.


What about Hot Pie?

Maybe we'll get a montage at the end, all played with sad music, where we get a couple of second snippets of all the people that are left alive and what they are doing. Sort of like the end of Donnie Darko.

Final one being in the far north which will reveal, in the midst of ice and snow the blue eyes of an ice wight that still 'lives'.

 

[ctg]

At the moment I'm not even sure if I want to watch the final one. I'm having same feelings as I was having with the TWD after Negan's massacre. I can imagine Davos smuggling Tyrion and himself out somewhere really nice and I'll be fine. No need to watch the ending.

 

[Al Jackson]

Why 'The Bells' is the worst Game of Thrones episode ever

Wired was really upset.
Game Of Thrones season 8 episode 5 review: The Bells
Den of Geek wrote a beautiful review.

Game of Thrones: Latest Episode Had Lowest Rotten Tomatoes Rating in Series History

Game Of Thrones Final Season Just Isn't That Good



a bonus

That appearance of Ian McElhinney was 4 years ago on Thronecast. I noticed that being picked up recently as a source of controversy , but gee that was in 2015.
Thronecast…. SkY took that off YouTube , what three years ago?, they or no one else has put up old episodes anywhere that I know of.

 

[anno]

My mate has a fanboy theory that the last scene will find them on the Island in Lost.

 

[Toby Frost]

I would end it with a soldier turning to his comrades and saying "I enjoyed this park, but I think I'll try the one with cowboys next time."

 

[Dan Jones]

That appearance of Ian McElhinney was 4 years ago on Thronecast. I noticed that being picked up recently as a source of controversy , but gee that was in 2015.
Thronecast…. SkY took that off YouTube , what three years ago?, they or no one else has put up old episodes anywhere that I know of.

Thronecast has been running since series 5 I think, it's been going for a long while, and I've watched each episode for this series so far. Last week's episode was good, with the geezer wot plays Syrio Forel on.

I thought this episode was great, I really enjoyed it. I don't understand the entitlement of superfans who are annoyed because the episode didn't turn out the way they had predicted (or wanted) and so go all Mad Queen on youtube or Twitter or whatever. FWIW I count myself as a big fan of the show, I've read the books, I know the lore of the world pretty well and am familiar with the prophecies and backstory and history of Westeros etc, but I'm quite content to watch, suspend disbelief and enjoy the show while it's on. And if you're REALLY angry about everything, why not just admire the production values? A hell of a lot of work went into making this stuff. For sure, I probably would have written things a bit differently, but guess what? I'm not the writer, and it wasn't up to me.

Anyway...

I thought Jaime's arc made sense; he and Cersei had always said they would die together, and as somebody else said above, redemptive arcs are rare in real life. Most people can't change who they really are, no matter how hard they try. So I thought Jaime's ending was tragic but believable.

Again, I thought Arya's ending (or, possible ending) was excellent, possibly the best on the show. Or, to put it another way, I think Arya's ending would be unimproveable if we never see her again, if she just rides off into the sunset. I think that would be perfect for her; the whole series for her has been about choosing life over death - after seven series' worth of her dancing with death, in this series she has had sex with Gendry (sex being a life-affirming, life-creating, hot-blooded act) when all other characters were mulling over their imminent deaths; she killed the Night King (the emdodiment of death), and on the advice of Sandor Clegane finally turned away from her kill list and vengeful bloodlust. However I don't think we've quite seen the last of Arya, but I'm not really sure what else they can do with her.

Talking of Clegane, I think his reckoning with his brother was well handled, and suitably apocalyptic. It also didn't succumb to the temptation to go all meta re: the Cleganebowl thing, which is to the show's credit. Also, Qyburn's Frankensteinian death-by-Mountain was excellent, and reminded me of the White Walkers running amok, beyond the control of their creators. When will they learn, eh?

And so to the elephant in the room (no, not the lack of elephants) - Dany. Like Susan Boulton, I'm one of the people who always thought she had the capacity to go full-on burny-burny at some point, and in this episode she finally snapped. As Susan said the breadcrumbs were clear; she's always enjoyed burning her enemies, and little by little she's had the pillars of her conscientiousness knocked over: her sale as a slave by her rotten brother, the death of her husband, the death of one of her dragon-children, her rejection by the Northmen after she helped save them, betrayals by Varys and Tyrion and Jon (though Jon was just doing his mopey honourable Ned thing), the deaths of Missandei and Jorah, who were her anchors to reason and clemency, the death of another of her dragon-children, sexual rejection by Jon this episode, and the refusal of Cersei to yield to her. So she snapped. So I don't think it is unexpected or unfaithful to her character; the question is now, what is Jon going to do after he saw his sexy girlfriend-auntie go all Dresden on the people of King's Landing? The time for moping and brooding is over, Jon Snow! And if he doesn't realise that now then he really does know nothing.

And who's going to kill Drogon? Maybe he and Bronn will have a dance-off to determine who dies, a la GOTG2. Or Ned will walk out of the shower and Catelyn will sit up in bed and say, "Oh Ned I had this terrible dream..."

Other thoughts
There's no way that DJ Bran and his phat EDM choons will end up on the Iron Throne - he's already said he can't be lord of Winterfell so I think it's clear that he's kind of renounced titles and stuff like that. Plus there's no disabled access - all those stairs...

Loved how the Golden Company were completely irrelevant in the end.

Will the Iron Bank have to be bailed out by Gordon Brown's government?

And will Tyrion have Davos smuggle his brain back to King's Landing (because God knows where it is right now)? Is that the favour he was asking Davos for?

 

[The Big Peat]

Okay - here's why I think the "They've got the Dany plot wrong" people have a point.

The trail of birdcrumbs point at Dany being rationally ruthless and violent to her powerful opponents, not to everyone she meets. In her violence, she was no different to Tywin Lannister, except with more dragons. The big difference was Dany's repeated compassion for the powerless and genuine attempts at altruism (arguably seen as late as Series 7 where she agrees to help the North against the White Walkers) and maybe a genetic inclination towards violence/insanity (but where has Dany shown she was going insane rather than merely having a violent streak prior to this?)

As such, I don't see Dany being a mad tyrant who deliberately kills thousands and thousands of the commonfolk being the inevitable end of the trail, or even the logical one. Dany launching a hotheaded assault directly at Cersei? Yes. Dany not caring who's in the way? Sure. Dany accepting Cersei's surrender then BBQing her and setting off a war anyway? Yup. Dany ignoring Cersei in favour of an attack on a beaten population? Whut? There is, personally, a big jump in her behaviour that was not adequately prepared. I can see why people were surprised and displeased. And I have to say, I'm somewhat displeased. Not surprised, because I didn't see where else the storyline was going once the Night King was wrapped up early, but I feel like they've decided it's where they should go, have waved their hands vaguely, and are hoping we're down for the ride. And the moment I have to actively decide whether I'm along for the ride, I'm definitely not.

And one small coda on the subject - the trope of the woman ruler only being allowed to act with the power of a man if there's something wrong with her head is a thing and and its not the greatest of them. I've seen a decent amount of complaining about them going that way with Dany before this episode and I think it's a fair criticism, particularly when the only other major women on scene were Cersei (same trope) and Arya (the trope of a woman only being allowed to be deadly if she's unfeminine). I can see why there seem to be a lot of women (although maybe not here) who are disappointed in the ending, no matter how logical. And while I can't pretend that such tropes are at the top of my head, the fact that a story built around attacking them seems to be ending by following them sits poorly with me.

 

[svalbard]

Okay - here's why I think the "They've got the Dany plot wrong" people have a point.

The trail of birdcrumbs point at Dany being rationally ruthless and violent to her powerful opponents, not to everyone she meets. In her violence, she was no different to Tywin Lannister, except with more dragons. The big difference was Dany's repeated compassion for the powerless and genuine attempts at altruism (arguably seen as late as Series 7 where she agrees to help the North against the White Walkers) and maybe a genetic inclination towards violence/insanity (but where has Dany shown she was going insane rather than merely having a violent streak prior to this?)

As such, I don't see Dany being a mad tyrant who deliberately kills thousands and thousands of the commonfolk being the inevitable end of the trail, or even the logical one. Dany launching a hotheaded assault directly at Cersei? Yes. Dany not caring who's in the way? Sure. Dany accepting Cersei's surrender then BBQing her and setting off a war anyway? Yup. Dany ignoring Cersei in favour of an attack on a beaten population? Whut? There is, personally, a big jump in her behaviour that was not adequately prepared. I can see why people were surprised and displeased. And I have to say, I'm somewhat displeased. Not surprised, because I didn't see where else the storyline was going once the Night King was wrapped up early, but I feel like they've decided it's where they should go, have waved their hands vaguely, and are hoping we're down for the ride. And the moment I have to actively decide whether I'm along for the ride, I'm definitely not.

And one small coda on the subject - the trope of the woman ruler only being allowed to act with the power of a man if there's something wrong with her head is a thing and and its not the greatest of them. I've seen a decent amount of complaining about them going that way with Dany before this episode and I think it's a fair criticism, particularly when the only other major women on scene were Cersei (same trope) and Arya (the trope of a woman only being allowed to be deadly if she's unfeminine). I can see why there seem to be a lot of women (although maybe not here) who are disappointed in the ending, no matter how logical. And while I can't pretend that such tropes are at the top of my head, the fact that a story built around attacking them seems to be ending by following them sits poorly with me.

Dany was teaching the people of Westeros or more importantly the Lords of Westeros a lesson. Fear is how she will rule as the path to love has being closed to her. She has seen this in The North where Jon is the one people gravitate to, in Sansa who despises her even though she staked all in saving Winterfell, in Cersei who betrayed their agreement, in the people of Kings Landing who fail to rise up in favor of her. All of this is rejection of her legitimate right to rule. History is riddled with rulers who have gone off at the deep end for less. If fact it would have being strange if she did not order the sack of Kings Landing. This is how stuff gets settled.

And she is allowed to be a bit paranoid. Jon is a lucky boy he is still alive. If I was Dany I would have had him killed as soon as he told her the truth about his identity. I cannot imagine any self respecting tyrant allowing other claimants to the throne hanging about with the army. And she was correct to be paranoid because Varys did betray her, Jon told his sister's against her expressed wishes, Tyrion blabbed his mouth. The two people she could only ever really trust are dead. Jorah and Missandei.

I am almost forgiving Dany her fit of pique.

 

[The Big Peat]

Dany was teaching the people of Westeros or more importantly the Lords of Westeros a lesson. Fear is how she will rule as the path to love has being closed to her. She has seen this in The North where Jon is the one people gravitate to, in Sansa who despises her even though she staked all in saving Winterfell, in Cersei who betrayed their agreement, in the people of Kings Landing who fail to rise up in favor of her. All of this is rejection of her legitimate right to rule. History is riddled with rulers who have gone off at the deep end for less. If fact it would have being strange if she did not order the sack of Kings Landing. This is how stuff gets settled.

And she is allowed to be a bit paranoid. Jon is a lucky boy he is still alive. If I was Dany I would have had him killed as soon as he told her the truth about his identity. I cannot imagine any self respecting tyrant allowing other claimants to the throne hanging about with the army. And she was correct to be paranoid because Varys did betray her, Jon told his sister's against her expressed wishes, Tyrion blabbed his mouth. The two people she could only ever really trust are dead. Jorah and Missandei.

I am almost forgiving Dany her fit of pique.

I can get her feeling isolated and doing desperate and ruthless things.

Turning her back on everything she's been and stood for is a step beyond that which I don't really buy. Particularly when she wasn't even sure Cersei was dead yet. That's not a fit of pique; that's moronic madness, and I only saw a descent into being a ruthless and smart tyrant, not a moronic madwoman.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Personally I don’t think it’s will Arya kill Dany but what face she will wear. There has to be a point to all faceless man stuff...

 

[svalbard]

She has always being impetuous. Weiss and Beinoff laid the groundwork on this when executed the Tarleys. I admit that is different to slaughtering women and children. Dany has always had this element to her character. When she claimed she was going to break the wheel I wondered what that really meant. I never took it that she was going to herald in a new age of egalitarian rule. Dany has always had an autocratic leaning.

 

[Ursa major]

That's not a fit of pique; that's moronic madness, and I only saw a descent into being a ruthless and smart tyrant, not a moronic madwoman.

Destroying a huge fortification containing thousands of people by using dragon fire is par for the course for Targs seeking to conquer Westeros. For Aegon the Conqueror, the place was Harrenhal; for Dany, it's King's Landing.

While the Harrenhal contained an army (many of whom would, however, not be soldiers) and King's Landing contained many more obvious civilians**, Dany probably thinks that in the time since she arrived in Westeros, there have been plenty of opportunities for the inhabitants of King's Landing to leave the city and so by not doing so, they have, in effect, tied their fates to that of Cersei.

Turning her back on everything she's been and stood for is a step beyond that which I don't really buy.

Dany is not in Westeros to free it (as she may or may not have been doing in Slaver's Bay); she is there to assert her right to the throne of the Seven Kingdoms by birthright (a stance that loses whatever moral authority it might have by Dany wanting to keep Jon's right to the throne, one which trumps hers, a secret).


** - As I won't be watching this season until the DVD is issued, I don't know who exactly was in King's landing when Dany put it to the fire.

 

[Koopa]

i'm not sure how i feel about the rains of castamere at the end. one 1 hand it was fitting, including how the red keep became the grave. On the other hand, Tyrion is still alive. meaning the Lannisters aren't all dead yet in the show.

 

[Venusian Broon]

While the Harrenhal contained an army (many of whom would, however, not be soldiers) and King's Landing contained many more obvious civilians**, Dany probably thinks that in the time since she arrived in Westeros, there have been plenty of opportunities for the inhabitants of King's Landing to leave the city and so by not doing so, they have, in effect, tied their fates to that of Cersei.

Well, it depends doesn't it - given what Daeneryus knew/was told. What if they weren't allowed to leave, so as to be effectively made hostage by Cersei? I believe Cersei deliberately allowed people to come into the red keep with this idea in mind, but it could be applied to anyone else in the rest of the city if they closed the outer gates. Surely Dany might be aware of this possibility from the advice she had been given, or perhaps, even, it was deliberately signposted by Cersei to try and deter any dragon attack?

And, I believe the population of the city was about half a million. Where exactly will they go? Westeros has been ravaged by war for years, winter is coming, armies and dragons are all over the place again. Again, something I guess Dany might be aware of. Would it makes sense for a citizen of Kings Landing to try and escape into the dangerous unknown, or wait it out in the city with their stores of food, hoping that whoever wins, wins quickly and wants the city intact?

However, having said this, Tyrion's idea to siege, may have not been as apocalyptic, but could have generated a long drawn out fight that could have provoked great suffering too. And they only had two episodes to do it, so going dragon nuclear was one quick option.

The destruction seemed heavily aided by all those hidden caches of mad king Aerys' wildfire....but it does make you wonder. I mean Kings Landing is effectively a mediaeval city, and these places were reasonably prone to fires. It seems a minor miracle that the city didn't destroy itself through an accidental fire then chain reaction of wildfire going off.

 

[Dave]

...why not just admire the production values? A hell of a lot of work went into making this stuff.

Hmm! Possibly not that high? Last week they had "CupGate", this week "HandGate" when you can clearly see Jamie's real hand as he hugs Cersei rather than the golden artificial hand. Some would say those are easy mistakes to make. Once maybe, twice maybe not. Maybe people are looking too closely, or maybe they have rushed through finishing these episodes too quickly. Maybe they just don't care anymore.

 

[Ursa major]

What if they weren't allowed to leave, so as to be effectively made hostage by Cersei?

This was why I used the phrase "in the time since she arrived in Westeros".

That those people were still inside the city when Dany was able to destroy it with dragon fire means that they had not previously abandoned Cersei in however long a time it has been since Dany arrived in Westeros as its "rightful" ruler. That they may have had all sorts of reasons not to see the light is not something a mother of dragons would concern herself with.

 

[svalbard]

Dany says that the people of Slavers Bay rose up in support of her and she holds the people of Kings Landing culpable by not doing the same.

In the books Danny's legacy in Slavers Bay is one of slaughter.

 

[Al Jackson]

Dany says that the people of Slavers Bay rose up in support of her and she holds the people of Kings Landing culpable by not doing the same.

In the books Danny's legacy in Slavers Bay is one of slaughter.

On the other hand after taking Astapor and Yunkai Dany (bookwise) took care of something like 100,000 refuges who were camp followers from the conquered cities , they were camped outside of Meereen, this plot element was not done on the show*, nor the story of plague striking this group and Meereen where she arranged for the care of the refugees and the people of Meereen.
*Tho were saw a scene season 4 episode 1 where she is shown looking for Darrio and passing what seems to be a long line of camp followers, who we never really see again.

The best thing she could do right now is take her Unsullied and Dothraki survivors back aboard ship and return to Meereen and quite Westeros.
Even tho logical it's also some nonlinear story telling so I don't expect it to happen.

 

[svalbard]

On the other hand after taking Astapor and Yunkai Dany (bookwise) took care of something like 100,000 refuges who were camp followers from the conquered cities , they were camped outside of Meereen, this plot element was not done on the show*, nor the story of plague striking this group and Meereen where she arranged for the care of the refugees and the people of Meereen.
*Tho were saw a scene season 4 episode 1 where she is shown looking for Darrio and passing what seems to be a long line of camp followers, who we never really see again.

The best thing she could do right now is take her Unsullied and Dothraki survivors back aboard ship and return to Meereen and quite Westeros.
Even tho logical it's also some nonlinear story telling so I don't expect it to happen.

Good points

 

[-K2-]

*snort*

MSN News Item:
'560 babies in 2018 were named Khaleesi' (stunning unto itself if even one), but... after episode 8:5, MSN reports that 'some of them are in shock! Others disappointed, more 'kind of bittersweet right now,' and finally, "that was not cool!" Because the person who was supposed to be the Breaker of Chains (they do realize this is fiction, right?) is a genocidal monster!

Ah well... Maybe they'll find a good book to take their mind off of it and can get their children legally renamed... I know, how about 'The Bunker?' There is a whole cast of whacky characters in it.

And that is why, it's always fun in America

K2