Is Catelyn Dead??

[Direwolf]

If you take the events with the kingslayer into account she released a hostage against her kings command because it would benefit her selfish needs and she would not be penalized which shows she has no honor.

First of all, she freed the Kingslayer in an attempt to save her daughters... dishonorable yes, but not selfish. My take on her is not that she lacks values, but that she has different ones: she values compassion above honor. Her goal was to save her daughter's life by saving Jaime's. Is honor worth two deaths? Three? How many?

Now you could easily argue that freeing the Kingslayer puts more lives than two in danger, and you'd probably be right. I won't defend her decisions, because she made a whole lot of bad ones. But I often think that Davos-types can use "honor" as an easy way out; by following the rules, you no longer have to make difficult ethical decisions. Of course the best way is in the middle somewhere, but I like the fact that there's a character like Catelyn who's on the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

[Frey Slayer]

Wow.

I never was a big Catelyn fan, but I wasnt prepared for the vitriol so recently expressed.

My take was that she was overcome by the losses around her. Bran's near death, the next attempt on his life, Ned's execution, the subsequent deaths of many of Winterfell's finest at King's Landing, the belief that Rickon and Bran were murdered, having Sansa and Arya (she believed) held by the Lannister's, the illness of Hoster Tully, the mental illness of her sister, the "loss" of Robb insofar as she was no longer really needed by him the way she was when he was a child. Did I forget anything?

Thats a lot to overcome. I feel strongly that freeing Jaime was wrong and ill considered, but I think she kind of, sort of, in some such way, just "snapped" and wanted nothing than to save the rest of her children. (Sansa and Arya). She also had just had the unnerving experience of having watched Renly die by the "shadow" of his brother Stannis. That cant been good for one's mental health.

To be honest, Ive been reading a LOT lately about how people wouldnt know what they would do, and maybe do the same thing if they had been in the shoes of Anakin Skywalker. Im not sure its fair to condemn Catelyn without taking a pause to consider her motivations.

Oh, Edmure was never really the sharpest sword in the armory either.

 

[Boaz]

I really enjoy the way that GRRM set up the Starks and Tullys as the obvious good guys and the Lannisters as the despised villains in AGOT, only to have finally given us the Lannister's POVs in plenty by the end of ASOS. He pulled the rug out from under the good guys for sure.

Seriously, Catelyn's bad circumstances are her defense? But she is painted as noble and Cersei as evil. What about Cersei's circumstances? Cat was married off to the most loyal and honorable man in the kingdoms, Cersei was ripped from her lover and sold to an uncaring, brutish, physically abusive, paranoid, alcoholic, lecherous, adulterous, murdering usurper. Her husband's indiscretions were not just humiliating, I mean, those indiscretions became legends! She had to see the man she loved every day, while her cro-magnon husband tried to rape her every night. Then her children and her life are threatened by Ned. The government is given to her evil brother. And her father leaves her defenseless from Stannis and Renly. The city was almost taken before her father showed up. Her two youngest children were stolen from her by Tyrion. Then her eldest son is slain in front of her at a wedding, just like Cat's son. Her true love is maimed. And last, her father is murdered by her brother. She did not go insane. She did not free valuable captives. She did not abandon her children. Yet she is painted as evil and Cat is painted as good.

Believe me, I don't think for a minute that Cersei is sweet and innocent. She is cold and heartless to her enemies and she rewards loyalty... same with Cat.

PS - I agree that Edmure is not the sharpest sword in the armory, but he may be the most stable of any of Hoster's children! In fact, it's a wonder to me that the Tullys held sway as Lords of the Trident for as long as they did.

What do you think caused this psychological unbalancing of the Tully children? Their circumstances? Or the fact that Aerys is really their father? If they were half-Targaryens, then Bran really becomes a candidate for one of the dragons.

PPS - Similarities of Cat and Cersei.

Both are roughly same age.

Both their mothers died birthing a younger brother.

Both had quickly arranged political marriages to men they did not know.

Both witnessed attacks upon their sons.

Both of their husbands were "murdered."

Both of their eldest sons were murdered.

Both of them were sundered from their other children.

Both of them are whispered as kingslayers.

Both gave birth to kings.

Both despised their husbands' bastards.

 

[Direwolf]

There's no question Cersei's been dealt a pretty bad hand in many respects. It mostly boils down to forbidden love, and the sham of a marriage that results. The fact that her father is such a mean person is certainly part of it, too. I think the main difference between the two is that Catelyn seems pleasant to be around. She's nice to people (except Jon). The books are a series of tragedies for both women, but it seems like Cersei is a jerk before all that stuff happens. Cat doesn't unravel until afterwards.

Also, there are a few notable differences between the two women. First, when Cersei had Cat's lover as prisoner, the prisoner was killed. When Cat had Cat had Cersei's lover as prisoner, the prisoner was freed.

Second, I don't believe Ned ever threatened to kill Cersei's kids (though he did threaten exile). Jaime, however, tried to kill Cat's son Bran.

Third, both are whispered as Kingslayers, but only Cersei actually is.

 

[Garnet]

I never really compared Catelyn and Cersei together. I think their personalities are really different. Cersei is conniving and just seems to be cruel, even before she was married to Robert. Like when the Martells went to casterly rock and saw her torturing Tyrion who was only a baby.
She's constantly planning for her rise to power and doesn't care who she has to remove to get there.

Catelyn on the other hand isn't a really caring person, but neither is she totally mean.
She puts up with Jon in Winterfell, and doesn't stop him befriending her children, even though she has problems with him. I think that she seemed like a pretty level headed person untill her children started to be threatened, and then got all emotional and started making bad decissions, rather than looking at the bigger picture.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Seriously, Catelyn's bad circumstances are her defense? But she is painted as noble and Cersei as evil. What about Cersei's circumstances? Cat was married off to the most loyal and honorable man in the kingdoms, Cersei was ripped from her lover and sold to an uncaring, brutish, physically abusive, paranoid, alcoholic, lecherous, adulterous, murdering usurper.

I'm not quite sure if I agree that Catelyn is painted as noble. I think that she is painted as human, personally. Think about it- Catelyn spent the first year of her marriage with a child on the way and her husband, who she didn't know, far away. We're talking about a woman who, from the start, immersed herself in her children as a way to find happiness in a new and strange life. Her children served as a way to make her love Winterfell, and bridged the gap between her and Ned. When she released Jaime, it was to save not only her daughters, but her life and her sanity. She had already lost a husband, and was not aware of how long her son would live. Her father was on his death bed, and her eldest son was away at war. It might also be pointed out that while she has acknowledged Robb as her king, it was never an idea that she savored.

In regards to Cersei, I don't think she can be compared to Catelyn beyond circumstantial happenings in their lives. Since her youth she has lusted after power more than anything in the world, and she has been cruel to even her family members. I do not think she ever truly loved Jaime the way that he loved her. Remember, she was the one who convinced him to join the Kingsguard, saying that he would be closer to her. She had to have known that Jaime's choice would upset Tywin. With Jaime in the Kingsguard, Cersei was one step closer to inheriting the Lannister lands, titles, and power. Especially since there is absolutely no way that Tywin would ever let Tyrion inherit.

Yes, in her own way, Cersei loves her children. But I think she loves the advantages they bring her more.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Good points Boaz - I'm sure when I read them I saw something about GRRM using justaposition between different characters, and you just highlighted some great use.

I have to admit, I do very much side with Boaz on this one - the first time Cat really stands out from the book is early on, when she tells Jon that it should have been him crippled instead of Bran. You just don't forget that sort of comment easily. Though I was frustrated with her use as a character, I really enjoy reading about the deconstruction (read: prosecution) as above.

Even where there is disagreement on this, what it does is help highlight one clear issue, and that is the wide encompassment of the book to cater to different tastes and preferences to a generally wide degree - which is something that has been picked up above but I wanted to underline.

 

[Boaz]

I must confess that I'd rather have Catelyn in my family than Cersei. What I wrote in defense of Cersei was just goofing around and stirring the pot.

Cersei is avarice personified. And she thinks what is good for Cersei is good for the realm.

Cat at least tries to be loving and righteous. She is blind to her shortcomings and other's ambitions.

I love to hate Cersei. I relish the thought of Cersei getting hers.

I just can't stand Cat, probably because I see my own mistakes mirrored in her actions. Doh!

Now, I don't mean to say they are the same character or exactly alike. Like I, Brian said, GRRM juxtaposes the two women trough their similar circumstances. By their different reactions to similar events, Martin paints a fuller picture of the human condition.

 

[Raven]

I have to admit, I do very much side with Boaz on this one - the first time Cat really stands out from the book is early on, when she tells Jon that it should have been him crippled instead of Bran. You just don't forget that sort of comment easily.

Oh, unquestionably. Many people talk about Ned's death as being the point when they recognised that AGOT was going to be more than your usual fantasy fare, but I trace it to that scene with Jon and Cat. It was a clear signal that we were not going to be given an easy scenario with good Starks and bad Lannisters, where all the good guys like or at least respect each other because they recognise that they're the good guys.

It's clear from that scene that Cat can never forgive Jon merely for existing, and equally clear that she blames him unfairly. She does something unforgivable and wrong. One can point out (as I have) that she was under great stress, that she was equally horrible to Maester Luwin in the next chapter, and that she even seems to have been unfair to Ned, Robb and Rickon in the same period. But none of that takes away from the impact of the scene.

Yet, it's not my first impression of Cat. Cat has, after all, two chapters before that. And in those chapters we see a lot of her good side. She's tolerant and loving and kind. We see that she loves her children, and her husband: that she has made a good, loving marriage out of a political arrangement: that she is perceptive and clever. So, when I saw that scene with Jon, I didn't conclude (as some do) that Cat was a 'bad person'. I just saw that she had a major problem with Jon that could not be resolved, and that she had done something wrong under great pressure. I saw that she was a flawed, human character, something that GRRM specialises in.

Cat, more than any other character IMO, benefits from a reread. When I first read the series, I was inclined to blame her for a lot of things that, on rereading, I reassessed.

She has her faults, foremost among them a lack of humour - but that can be put down to the fact that, of all the characters, she has the least to laugh about. (Her chapters are almost without exception pretty stressful situations.) She can be sharp with others, but at the same time, she sympathises with Brienne when no-one else will: she remembers the name of the woman who used to come begging for shoes at Riverrun: she shows concern for the smallfolk: she even wonders whether Jon's mother worries about him, as she does for her children. She prays for an end to the war, she negotiates passage over the Twins, she comes to trust the instincts of the direwolves (against her initial reaction), and she acts bravely when necessary.

Blind to her shortcomings? I don't think so, really. She acknowledges when she has spoken sharply to others, or said the wrong thing to Robb. She admits when she has made mistakes. Compared to, say, Robert (who was only willing to face up to his shortcomings on his deathbed) she's a freaking saint.

 

[Boaz]

Compared to, say, Robert (who was only willing to face up to his shortcomings on his deathbed) she's a freaking saint.

Absolutely! On his deathbed, Robert hopes that he was not as bad as Aerys, a renowned monster. What an incredible legacy!

I think Cat is blind to the fact that she coddled her children and Ned. None of them seem to be really prepared for the outside world... granted they are children, but they don't really know the Stark words. They all seem to be dreamers.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I think Cat is blind to the fact that she coddled her children and Ned. None of them seem to be really prepared for the outside world... granted they are children, but they don't really know the Stark words. They all seem to be dreamers.

How many parents do you know who are willing and ready to admit that they have spoiled their children? And how does one prepare his/her children for having their lives completely uprooted and their world thrown into chaos? The Stark children are not only children, they are of noble birth, meaning you can't expect them all to heartily fend for themselves. And personally, I think they've done quite well, considering what they've all been through. How many coddled brats would eat worms just to stay alive?

 

[Frey Slayer]

How many parents do you know who are willing and ready to admit that they have spoiled their children? And how does one prepare his/her children for having their lives completely uprooted and their world thrown into chaos? The Stark children are not only children, they are of noble birth, meaning you can't expect them all to heartily fend for themselves. And personally, I think they've done quite well, considering what they've all been through. How many coddled brats would eat worms just to stay alive?

Ditto what you just said.

Jon, Bran, Arya and Robb have all shown skill at being leaders as well as survivors. Bran may have needed the Reeds to prod him along and make suggestions, but is doing quite well for himself in spite of his injury. Robb made some foolish mistakes, more than likely because of his youth, but still led very well. Arya and Jon are well ahead of any curve you can judge them against.
Sansa, well, I think she'll come around in time. She does tend to be a bit dreamy.

 

[Direwolf]

It seems to me that the children may have been a bit spoiled by their wealth and nobilility, but not by their parents. Could you imagine Myrcella and Tommen going through what Arya and Bran went through? How about Lysa's kid? Stannis' daughter? For their age, what the Stark kids have done is pretty remarkable.

 

[Boaz]

If you guys don't stop making sense, I'll be forced to come around to your point of view.