What would you criticize or change about LotR, The Hobbit, or Silmarillion?

[Bick]

I think The Silmarillion is the finest thing Tolkein wrote... I re-read it myself (my third reading) only a year or so ago.

 

[BAYLOR]

I think The Silmarillion is the finest thing Tolkein wrote... I re-read it myself (my third reading) only a year or so ago.

I enjoyed reading it too.

I know the Tolkien Estate won't ever allow this as long they have control. But I would love to see an anthology of stories set in Tolkien's world by some of today best fantasy writers .

 

[Bick]

... I would love to see an anthology of stories set in Tolkien's world by some of today best fantasy writers .

Interesting idea. I'm not sure who I would trust with it, but it would be a very interesting book to read. I think Cherryh could have a decent crack at it.

 

[paranoid marvin]

In that scenario , the probable outcome would be that both Frodo and Sam would likely have ended up dying.

Possibly, or the ending goes the way it did in the book; all outcomes are still available. Tbh I'm kind of glad that Smeagol got his Precious back before the end, even if it cost him dear. I think he would have accepted that outcome in order to get it back.

 

[BAYLOR]

Interesting idea. I'm not sure who I would trust with it, but it would be a very interesting book to read. I think Cherryh could have a decent crack at it.

Good choice

What about Patricia McKillip ?

 

[BAYLOR]

Possibly, or the ending goes the way it did in the book; all outcomes are still available. Tbh I'm kind of glad that Smeagol got his Precious back before the end, even if it cost him dear. I think he would have accepted that outcome in order to get it back.

Bilbo found the Ring In Gollum's Cave , took it back to the Shire and for decades it stayed in his house and delayed the aging process in Bilbo and when Galdalf saw him, he noted this. Bilbo giver up the Ring and, later in Rivendel Frodo seaways Bilbo again and he's aged alot. Without the influence of the one Ring, his years have caught up with him. Now Gollum possessed the Ring for 500 years and it too extended his life Centuries and yet when he lost the Ring to Bilbo and no longer having it in his possession for decades how it is that Gollum without the Ring didn't rapidly age and die?

 

[Vince W]

Now Gollum possessed the Ring for 500 years and it too extended his life Centuries and yet when he lost the Ring to Bilbo and no longer having it in his possession for decades how it is that Gollum without the Ring didn't rapidly age and die?

That was the power of the Ring. Gollum had it for so long that he was infused with its power, albeit in a minimal way. As long as the Ring endured so would Gollum. Bilbo, on the other hand, only had it a relatively short time so he wasn't as overcome by the Ring, so when he was parted from it he started to age normally again. That's how I see it at least.

 

[Extollager]

Interesting idea. I'm not sure who I would trust with it, but it would be a very interesting book to read.

I'd respectfully express a great doubt regarding whether any Anglophone author known to me, at least, should attempt such a thing. I would expect pervasive bogusness, however well-intentioned. You really need a learned person, an old-fashioned scholar, as well as someone with great imaginative gifts, to undertake something like that. The only author who comes to mind -- as a remote possibility -- is Eugene Vodolazkin, who is both medievalist (thought with a Russian focus) and a writer of proven imaginative gifts.

 

[paranoid marvin]

That was the power of the Ring. Gollum had it for so long that he was infused with its power, albeit in a minimal way. As long as the Ring endured so would Gollum. Bilbo, on the other hand, only had it a relatively short time so he wasn't as overcome by the Ring, so when he was parted from it he started to age normally again. That's how I see it at least.

I think this is it. whilst you possess the Ring it extends your life, slowing down the aging process to a crawl. "I feel thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread", It's interesting to speculate as to just how far the aura of effect the Ring had. Bilbo for the most part didn't use it, and neither did Frodo. Did even the mere presence of it have an effect on the bearer?

As the Ring approaches Mordor it exerts a malign influence on Frodo making him weaker, even when he isn't wearing it, and when Sam puts the chain attached to the Ring around his neck 'at once his head was bowed to the ground...as if a great stone had been strung on him'.

It's entirely possible that possession of the Ring makes you immortal...although what fragments of yourself would remain after a thousand years probably wouldn't be pretty to behold.

Once the Ring leaves your possession, the aging process does increase, but this seems to depend on the amount of usage. Bilbo grows old fairly quickly, whilst Smeagol seems not to have gotten any older/weaker.

 

[Vince W]

I think this is it. whilst you possess the Ring it extends your life, slowing down the aging process to a crawl. "I feel thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread", It's interesting to speculate as to just how far the aura of effect the Ring had. Bilbo for the most part didn't use it, and neither did Frodo. Did even the mere presence of it have an effect on the bearer?

As the Ring approaches Mordor it exerts a malign influence on Frodo making him weaker, even when he isn't wearing it, and when Sam puts the chain attached to the Ring around his neck 'at once his head was bowed to the ground...as if a great stone had been strung on him'.

It's entirely possible that possession of the Ring makes you immortal...although what fragments of yourself would remain after a thousand years probably wouldn't be pretty to behold.

Once the Ring leaves your possession, the aging process does increase, but this seems to depend on the amount of usage. Bilbo grows old fairly quickly, whilst Smeagol seems not to have gotten any older/weaker.

I doubt being next to the Ring would have any effect. You would have to hold or wear the Ring. Look how Gandalf avoided touching it.

I don't think it's getting closer to Mordor that causes the increased effect of the Ring, but getting closer to Sauron. He just happens to be in Mordor.

 

[Pyan]

That was the power of the Ring. Gollum had it for so long that he was infused with its power, albeit in a minimal way. As long as the Ring endured so would Gollum. Bilbo, on the other hand, only had it a relatively short time so he wasn't as overcome by the Ring, so when he was parted from it he started to age normally again. That's how I see it at least.

I wonder if distance had anything to do with the powers of the Ring as well? For most of the time it was held by Gollum, Sauron was practically just down the road, at Dol Guldur. When it passed to Bilbo, it moved much further away - then Sauron removed to the Barad-dûr , much further South and East of Dol Guldur, and probably as far from the Ring as he ever got. Perhaps the added distance lessened the hold that the Ring exerted on the mind of the person that had temporary ownership - and we know that the Ring became a greater and more terrible weight to bear from Frodo's experiences from Ithilien to Orodruin.

 

[Vince W]

I wonder if distance had anything to do with the powers of the Ring as well? For most of the time it was held by Gollum, Sauron was practically just down the road, at Dol Guldur. When it passed to Bilbo, it moved much further away - then Sauron removed to the Barad-dûr , much further South and East of Dol Guldur, and probably as far from the Ring as he ever got. Perhaps the added distance lessened the hold that the Ring exerted on the mind of the person that had temporary ownership - and we know that the Ring became a greater and more terrible weight to bear from Frodo's experiences from Ithilien to Orodruin.

That would make sense. The Ring's influence follows the inverse-square law.

I is the influence. P is Sauron's power. r is the distance between the Ring and Sauron.

 

[paranoid marvin]

There's a few things we know about the Ring. One (seemingly) universal truth is that it makes the wearer invisible - apart from (probably) Sauron - when it is worn on the finger. When it is hung around the neck then (for Sam and Frodo) it becomes a heavy burden, but it doesn't make them invisible. The Ring also compels the possessor to wear it in times of need; both Frodo and Sam come close to being caught because it tries to give themselves away to the Enemy.

But being close to the Ring seems to have an effect on some. 'A madness' overwhelms Boromir; is it caused by the Ring or just his own inner desire to have it - or maybe a combination of the two? Smeagol was compelled to murder Deagol; they were 'a clever-handed and quiet-footed little people' , not the kind to kill each other. So was it pure desire or was it the influence of the Ring that made him strangle his friend. And both the creature in the lake and the troll in Moria seemingly target the Ring-bearer; coincidence or the influence of the Ring?

On the other hand, even when they are within touching distance, the Nazgul cannot find the party of Hobbits. Although they sense it is nearby, you would imagine that being in such close proximity to it the Ring would be able to make itself known to them (if it had influence away from the bearer). And as Vince says Gandalf did not concern himself about being close to it, but refused to touch it.

And yes I agree that the closer to Sauron you are , the more hold it has on you. Although it could be argued that seeing as the Cracks of Doom are the only way to destroy the Ring - and as it seems to have a will to live - that the closer you get to the one place that is fatal to it, the more it will fight back.

As for the eagles mentioned earlier, I never considered it possible for them to fly them in to Mordor. It only became possible to do so with the destruction of Sauron; if they had attempted such a feat with Mordor at full power, the eagles would likely have got nowhere near Mount Doom.

 

[BAYLOR]

Sauron is also a slave to his own Ring , his own creation , it's also the only physical part of him that's left. Based on what we know from the Silmarillion , Suaron once had physical from , and he had a rather attractive and charismatic human form and he lost it when Numenor was destroyed. But he retained enough of a physical form to be able construct and cast the One ring and the Lesser Rings. He invested much his overall will into this ring. Once could speculate the he did this because whatever physical from he had left couldn't sustain him. He needs the Ring , he cannot live in out world without it.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Sauron is also a slave to his own Ring , his own creation , it's also the only physical part of him that's left. Based on what we know from the Silmarillion , Suaron once had physical from , and he had a rather attractive and charismatic human form and he lost it when Numenor was destroyed. But he retained enough of a physical form to be able construct and cast the One ring and the Lesser Rings. He invested much his overall will into this ring. Once could speculate the he did this because whatever physical from he had left couldn't sustain him. He needs the Ring , he cannot live in out world without it.

Yes I suppose the 'modern' version of it is the Horcrux; the body withers but - as long as the physical object remains - the spirit can not be destroyed.

Did Sauron create the Ring to ensure that he would not die? Interesting to speculate, but I think it was more that he wanted to create the most powerful, most magical object in Middle-earth, a magic item that was capable of controlling and dominating everything else. In order to do this he had to put a part of himself into it, so that the Ring is more powerful than Sauron ever could be.

I absolutely agree though that he became a slave to it; as did every other being (to a greater or lesser extent) who possessed it. Did he call it his 'precious'? Quite possibly.

 

[BAYLOR]

Yes I suppose the 'modern' version of it is the Horcrux; the body withers but - as long as the physical object remains - the spirit can not be destroyed.

Did Sauron create the Ring to ensure that he would not die? Interesting to speculate, but I think it was more that he wanted to create the most powerful, most magical object in Middle-earth, a magic item that was capable of controlling and dominating everything else. In order to do this he had to put a part of himself into it, so that the Ring is more powerful than Sauron ever could be.

I absolutely agree though that he became a slave to it; as did every other being (to a greater or lesser extent) who possessed it. Did he call it his 'precious'? Quite possibly.

Sauron sealed his and Mordor's fate when he crafted that Ring. He also sealed the fate of the Elves and everyone else in Middle Earth . The destruction of the Ring in no small measure, diminished the power of the Elves. Galadriel had said that without magic, The elves would diminish into a rustic folks which , tells me that the elves had to to go to the Grey Havens or face eventual extinction, Gandalf and the other surviving mages mages too had leave as well. The Dwarfs likely did die out in the 4th age , Hobbits served because they closeted to Humans.

Sauron's defeat took all of the magic out middle earth.

 

[Vince W]

Sauron sealed his and Mordor's fate when he crafted that Ring. He also sealed the fate of the Elves and everyone else in Middle Earth . The destruction of the Ring in no small measure, diminished the power of the Elves. Galadriel had said that without magic, The elves would diminish into a rustic folks which , tells me that the elves had to to go to the Grey Havens or face eventual extinction, Gandalf and the other surviving mages mages too had leave as well. The Dwarfs likely did die out in the 4th age , Hobbits served because they closeted to Humans.

Sauron's defeat took all of the magic out middle earth.

That sums up Sauron's problem very nicely. He couldn't see beyond his own desire for power to realise that his actions would diminish the world for everyone, including himself.

 

[BAYLOR]

That sums up Sauron's problem very nicely. He couldn't see beyond his own desire for power to realise that his actions would diminish the world for everyone, including himself.

In part the blame for what happened to Middle Earth rests with the Gods of Middle Earth Sauron offered to serve them , but they reject his services . Had they made a different choice, Sauron might have gone the other way and become good person who, with his great powered knowledge might have done great good in Middle Earth There would been no destructive Wars of the Rings and, Middle Earth would have continued magic and all. Alot would have been different.

 

[Vince W]

In part the blame for what happened to Middle Earth rests with the Gods of Middle Earth Sauron offered to serve them , but they reject his services . Had they made a different choice, Sauron might have gone the other way and become good person who, with his great powered knowledge might have done great good in Middle Earth There would been no destructive Wars of the Rings and, Middle Earth would have continued magic and all. Alot would have been different.

True, but that wouldn't make for much of story would it?

 

[BAYLOR]

True, but that wouldn't make for much of story would it?

That's an excellent point.