SFF from Less-Represented Cultures

[tinkerdan]

When examining the discussion title
SFF from Less-Represented Cultures
There are a number of problems I see with this.
An issue that has often been raised is that SFF has been dominated by a single culture(One specific ethnic group)that has somehow managed to exclude a number of marginalized groups*. And I have no problem believing there is truth to that--but the very fact, if it's truth, highlights where I see one of the problems with expectations of SFF from Less-Represented Cultures.

The first is an immediate response in a readers mind that might be tied more closely to SFF about Less-Represented Cultures--From authors of those cultures.**

This creates a false hope of the possibility of getting insight into those cultures.

To get back to what I said at the top; Even authors from other cultures have only the same science fiction and fantasy from(The more Represented Cultures) which to draw, so it is more likely that they will be writing similar SFF using a voice that comes from another culture--however that doesn't mean that they are going to populate their work with characters and customs of their culture because they are working from the same base formula of writing as everyone else. Yet that can be the expectations of some readers.***

Conversely it might seem like the awards people are just happy to have more-less represented culture authors to draw from and they are happy to pass out awards for good writing. The Problem is that--looking back to previous point--despite and maybe even because of the award there are still some expectations that shouldn't be here unless we change this to a topic of SFF about less represented cultures.

It seems clear that the awards are not given for SFF about less represented cultures as much as they are for SFF from Less Represented Cultures****.

I have read a number of great well written books from less represented culture authors. However, I have learned not to expect them to always represent their culture--after all this is usually fiction that extrapolates from what is to what could be in some distant future. Bottom line for me the culture of the author matters less than that they write as well as they can*****.

* Okay I might not have expressed this exactly as some people might think of it, however I hope you get the gist.
** This admittedly has been one of my own problems.
*** So when I read Rebecca Roanhorse I perceived 'just another zombie apocalypse novel' [but one written by a native american and written well despite the skew in representation of a culture.]
****Once again-my opinion after trying to read award winning authors.
*****Anyway this is just my observation and might belong it a different thread--Please don't let it derail the point of this which I think is mostly to share books and authors.

A favorite novel I have is The Good Soldier Svejk by Jaroslav Hasek.(though this is not SFF it is fiction)
He's a Czech writer-who grew up and wrote in Slovakia.
My reason for reading this is that my grandfather came to the US directly from Czechoslovakia. He died when I was 13 and what I recall of him was not much in representing what the culture of Slovakia was.
I'm hoping that Svejk is also not a great representation of the culture--however since the better part of my DNA targets that region and comes out on top of the French part; with spatterings of European and eastern European and possibly a significant portion of Native American(the third largest of components yet much smaller than the two major) I've often felt like a man with no culture. But back to the point--I wasn't desperately in need of a true representation of Slavic culture and this is fiction so I have tried not to lean too heavily upon how it represents my grandfathers culture. It does give some insight into some of the socio-political atmosphere in the country during the war.

It's worth reading and even though it sometimes might sound self effacing(increasing suspicion about its representation)I think that people of the culture might be more offended if you didn't find it worth reading.

 

[Danny McG]

I think then maybe David Wingrove with his Chung Kao series is an example of someone not of that culture but writing about it.

Forget those who are unfamiliar it's set a couple of hundred years from now and China dominates space.
The ruling classes – who base their rule on the customs and fashions of imperial China – maintain traditional palaces and courts both on Earth and in geostationary orbit.

It might have been ok but the storytelling was sh*t.

 

[Paul_C]

I'm not sure I completely understand @tinkerdan 's post, but nevertheless I'll offer an opinion based on what I assume is the point.

I'm sure there are writers who have written works where their main source of sci-fi was from writers based in Europe and the US and may therefore have been influenced by what they read, and writers who have written for what might be perceived as the largest market for their work.

But despite that I'm sure there are many who write for their own audience and whose work is much more slanted towards their life experiences and the country they live in than any outside influences.

Most of Stanislaw Lem's work feels very different to anything else from his era and I think the same is true of a number of others I've read.

 

[Danny McG]

Forget those who are unfamiliar it's set a couple of hundred years from now and China dominates space

Stupid auto correct thingy
"For those who are unfamiliar....."

(I know it's totally outclassed by @Vertigo and his "hoping his words upset people")

 

[Phyrebrat]

Nnedi Okorafor (Binti),

It’s hard to know what we don’t know when examining and judging expected cultural authenticity. This author is an American Nigerian - specifically the surname Okorafor is an Igbo one. However Binti (the MC) is from
the Himba tribe - an ethnic group from Namibia and parts of Angola - not an Igbo.

Not that I’m saying Igbo can’t write anything but Igbo, but that as culture and heritage is so complex (and often personal!) it’s hard for those outside to make a judgment on authenticity or appropriation.

Now factor in her Americanness to the mix.
Hugos or nebulas are voted for by their members. I expect that membership to be made up predominantly of white males despite recent successes in diversity in SFF. Could anyone amongst them identify any offensive or inaccurate content in Binti’s depiction?

pH

 

[Paul_C]

I follow her on twitter and I've considered asking, but I'm not sure if you'd like me to. She does mention Igbo, so you're probably spot on regarding that.

If you would, you're welcome to phrase your own question to be passed on, or ask her yourself of course

I could just ask why she chose to set Binti amongst the Himba if that simplifies things.

If not then I will do nothing.

 

[The Big Peat]

Googled and found this:

"
Why did you choose to base Binti's people, the Himba, on a real people?

I've known for years that I wanted to write the Himba in the future. They're a group of Africans who have maintained their culture so deeply in the midst of modernity. Being Nigerian, being Igbo in particular, that's a big deal. That's something my own people have struggled with. When I started thinking about the idea of this girl—and it was always going to be a girl—going to this university in space, the first thing that popped into my head was, oh, I want her to be Himba, I want her to take that with her."

That makes sense to me. And while I think it is fair to point out that being black doesn't make you an expert on everything black (and the rest of it), it is a very fine line to walk as the people of the various diasporas on earth get enough "Oh you're not real X" as it is and deserve support, not endless questioning.

 

[Phyrebrat]

Hi @Paul_C

You can ask so if you wish, but this isn’t my thread and I’m not really seeking anything.

My post was to simply highlight the complexities amongst Africans which was clans and tribal boundaries long before the white man came, divided it up and gave those new divisions names. It’s why so many of the small west African countries have so many different tribes.

And we've not even touched on the issue of transnationalism. that really complicates things

pH

 

[AlexH]

Hi @Paul_C

You can ask so if you wish, but this isn’t my thread and I’m not really seeking anything.

My post was to simply highlight the complexities amongst Africans which was clans and tribal boundaries long before the white man came, divided it up and gave those new divisions names. It’s why so many of the small west African countries have so many different tribes.

And we've not even touched on the issue of transnationalism. that really complicates things

pH

Although I started the thread, it's not my thread either!

I think @tinkerdan touched on transnationalism (or at least my understanding of it). It's a good point and does rather complicate things. Nothing is 'pure' though. I'm reminded of people who visit tribes for a cultural experience and are disappointed when they see locals wearing jeans and Man Utd shirts. I think the world is a better place for multiculturalism, and even if creative mediums of SFF about less represented cultures has been influenced by more ubiquitous cultures, it's still the person or persons who created the works take on it.

 

[Paul_C]

It could well be that I have misunderstood, but I think the fact that I couldn't let it go was because it felt to me like your response to my suggestion of Binti as a good example was disagreeing with that suggestion as there was no guarantee of any "authenticity" unless the author themselves had a complete and personal connection to the people being described in the book, regardless of it being science fiction - apologies if I have got that wrong.

I do recognise that it's quite possible for there to be inaccuracies as a consequence, but doesn't the opportunity for people of African descent (not just the Himba) to see something of themselves represented in a book outweigh the risk ?

From what little I've read about the Himba they seem unlikely to write or read much at all, let alone science fiction, so I found it fascinating to learn a little about them having read Binti - I doubt I would ever of heard of them otherwise.

 

[Paul_C]

I forgot - if I watched this I might find out something about the Himba, but I'm not sure what.

Scarlett Moffatt moves into semi built in African village for baffling new show

 

[Stephen Palmer]

I think then maybe David Wingrove with his Chung Kao series is an example of someone not of that culture but writing about it.

I got flak in 2003 for writing Muezzinland, clearly of the "he's a white male writing about Ghanaian women therefore it must be nonsense" variety.
Some sections of our various types of media are in danger of being overwhelmed by identity politics. One of the main purposes of writing is to present different human perspectives to the reader, which authors do by use of imagination. Identity politics and everything which has recently grown up around it acts against that act of imagination, and, ultimately, acts against human empathy.

PS Danny - yes, the books were terrible! (or at least the one I read).

 

[Toby Frost]

Somewhat off-topic ramble:

I still struggle to find fantasy that treats historical cultures with any depth, rather than apply generic tropes. As I keep saying, swords and wenches does not make a setting medieval!

It's not just material details but also social ones, too - for example, stable boys are not going to become best friends with princesses and socialize with them. Social hierarchies and identities were very important in the past.

I see two problems here. First, Ye Generic Fantasy Olde Times is almost an established setting of its own, separate from any real reference point other than other fantasy derived very loosely from pre-gunpowder Europe (sometimes with a bit of the Pilgrim Fathers thrown in). The second problem is that the real world just isn't as much fun as fantasy, at least not in the same way. In writing a fantasy version of the Renaissance, I quickly realised that not only can the wackier elements be made to work, you can squash history together. If I want the equivalents of John Dee and Leonardo to meet, I can, because they're in the same stereotype (very, very broadly!). Likewise the princess/stable boy romance can be allowed to happen and, whilst historically unlikely, doesn't have to be unconvincing if written well in fantasy (even in quite a dark one).

That's not to say that you can't write rollicking historical novels where improbable romances happen (see Tipping The Velvet, for instance). But there'll always be a sense of "They wouldn't allow that" which a writer has to get around - in effect, the sense that anything fun will be banned by the people in charge, and any story has to be about rebellion against society.

Anyway, back on topic...

 

[Brian G Turner]

But there'll always be a sense of "They wouldn't allow that" which a writer has to get around

I totally agree - it's more when people complain that too much of fantasy is based on Mediaeval Europe. Yet could any of those critics identify anything specific to the the Condottieri of Italy, the Conquistidores of Spain,or the Landsknechts of Germany in modern fantasy fiction? And is there any Middle Eastern culture that fantasy writers relate to that isn't based on Islamic ones? There's plenty enough to mine from the past, for those who dare to.

 

[The Big Peat]

I totally agree - it's more when people complain that too much of fantasy is based on Mediaeval Europe. Yet could any of those critics identify anything specific to the the Condottieri of Italy, the Conquistidores of Spain,or the Landsknechts of Germany in modern fantasy fiction? And is there any Middle Eastern culture that fantasy writers relate to that isn't based on Islamic ones? There's plenty enough to mine from the past, for those who dare to.

It was a pleasant surprise to me when The Golem and the Djinni focused on a Syrian Christian expat community. There's always something.

But yes, I do get what you mean. Just I get what they mean too - it mightn't be tightly based on Medieval Europe as was, but it is definitely loosely based on Medieval (or early Renaissance) Europe as is often perceived. It is based, yet not based.

 

[Phyrebrat]

it felt to me like your response to my suggestion of Binti as a good example was disagreeing

In that case, I'm really sorry. I was just snagging a quote from your post as a reference to what I was going to waffle on about . I wasn't disagreeing - or at least didn't mean to come off like that. I wanted to illustrate how we (we, being a white majority) tend to see race (or rather, non-white) as a lot less nuanced than it is.

Re transnationalism (after all); there is an identity focus amongst non-white communities - most of my kids identify as Ghanaian, Nigerian, Ja, Albanian, Turkish, etc when we talk about identity, because that is their heritage, but they also consider themselves Brits. I recall a S.A saying to me years ago 'I'm this Sowetan, but I'm also a Londoner and a Brit, and English and then most of all Ndebele' all because his mother moved 'here' (London) which is where he was born. Then there is a young man I teach who when I asked his heritage he cited Barbados, Ja, Nigeria, Ghana, Panama and a few other countries. I should say he has ASD and so might have looked into it further than most, but even so, he identified as a Caribbean brit, rather than African which in itself speaks volumes.

but doesn't the opportunity for people of African descent (not just the Himba) to see something of themselves represented in a book outweigh the risk ?

I'm not so sure - and again this is not an attack on you or anything, so please don't feel that - but it can be counterproductive. It made me think of how this suggestion would be received by many Caribbean folk, or African-Americans; black peoples are incredibly diverse - even within miles of each other - down to social and ritual customs etc, and to have a diluted version or a placeholder rendering of a real clan/tribe/national would be offensive. Offensive as in the author risks making assumptions that all WAfricans are the same, or similar etc.

Therefore it's best when writing someone of African descent to do as she did with Binti

Spoiler: RE "Binti"

[BTW I teach two girls; Binta - a Gambian, and Bintu - A Nigerian, so even the usually-reliable way of looking at an African name and being able to decide which tribe she is from, can trip the unintiated up, too!]

and chose a specific tribe to represent. Even then you have to know infrastructure and geography; the Ashanti for example have commonalities all over Ghana of course, but there's a difference in behaviour between those of the trad Ashanti stomping grounds, in Kumasi and those, say of Accra, the capital, where the Ashanti mix with those of Ga, Ewe, Fante and absorb.

My OH is Ewe and he is often making egregious - though light-hearted - claims about how the Ewe are better than the Ashanti which is purely subjective. He says the Ashanti are cave dwellers and stole the golden stool and bla bla bla. All this takes on a different spin when I factor in my own experiences in Ghana where the people are wholly wonderfully kind and affable, yet the Ewe do, IMO, outstrip all in terms of humility, kindness and welcoming others. Now imagine me, a white man, standing up and saying such in front of Ghanaian people who don't know me. It'd be a hard sell

I think the above probably illustrates, even on the surface level, how complex it is to write outside of our own cultural capital. My WIP and the next two items on my 'to write' list have a strong representation of black UK kids (WIP 2) and Wafrican tradition (WIP 3) but that is to do with their behaviour, transnationally, as opposed to trying to represent them as countrymen/women in the place of their heritage. The trick is knowing what conditioned, 'ethnic' behaviour to write, for the charactets which are now, essentially ethnically creolised.

For me, I think the most challenging ethnicity/national to write would be Ja. To a certain extent Africans still have a strong sense of cohesion, identity and confidence. For many many Jamaicans, this is far more complex, a struggle, and is often expressed in incredibly negative ways. When we compare the history of Jamaica versus that of other WAfrican countries, they have different 'reasons' for being where they are. When your heritage is

Spoiler: poss offensive phrase

slave stock,

and your history been erased, your identity becomes something that is highly charged and emotive.

I'll leave you with this true story: One of my favourite students was a Ghanaian boy called Imhotep. Quite why a Ghanaian family would name their son after a 3rd Dynasty pharaoh is beyond me (but then it's better than the Beyonces, Beyonzays, Beey'nces, Aaliyah's and Tupac's I've taught over the years ).

What interested me more was when I met him, I asked him what tribe he was from. He took offence and said, "Oh right, sir, like "tribe"? What, you think we run around with spears?' I apologised and explained that I meant tribe in the true sense as opposed to pejoratively, and explained that it still retained its meaning of 'ethnic group' even though many racists might use it otherwise. In that moment I was in awe of the complexity of how we brand ourselves; Here was Imho, so strong in his sense of his identity, of his blackness, but his understanding of the word 'tribe' was so simplistic - and loaded. In the end it turned out he is Ga. Had I known his surname, I'd have been able to tell, but then I'd've missed such a magical moment of connection and learning.

TL;DR. Writing is hard. There's always another side to even the most simple-seeming things.

pH

 

[Danny McG]

It has been alleged that the OwnVoice Movement is moving on from YA and looking at SFF.

"How dare David Weber write stories about Honor Harrington; He's not a woman!"

I can see the day coming tbh.

 

[Toby Frost]

Someone will probably say something like that at some time (you can find someone willing to say anything, and the internet allows them to do so and people to broadcast it), but I expect they'll be laughed out of town.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Comfort zones are pretty boring places to stay.

Also Own Voices is already firmly embedded in the sf scene now. Which does beg the question why should a male writer have better access to the market to write his stories about his female space character than an equivalent woman writer would have had at that time?

I suspect, though, Brian and the mod team would prefer very much that we didn’t go there in the discussion

 

[Toby Frost]

All I have to say about that is that the issue of the entitlement of a writer to write what they want, and the issue of the availability of a market to sell a book, are two different things.