Writing compelling non-human alien behavior

[zmunkz]

In following your replies, I’m not actually sure what you are looking for in this thread. Do you seek examples of non-emotionally-framed aliens? Or just thoughts on how to execute such a species? Or is this more of a statement of your own goals?

If you want truly alien aliens, I‘d first play with a lifeform that was not evolved by natural selection. An example might be an AI created by some progenitor species. Such a lifeform is free to have an arbitrary divorce from what we consider basic mechanics of living (such as emotion).

As for naturally occurring creatures, there is only one known (or theorized) scientific method for making life forms, and it is evolution through natural selection. Anything that developed naturally, on Earth or elsewhere, is therefore pressured towards certain lowest-friction solutions to the problem of living. Some kind of central nervous system with the ability to react to the environment with an understanding of how that environment affects its own well being is pretty unavoidable. Maybe that is a lack of imagination on my part, but I have undertaken the thought experiment without much luck. Once you are processing input and applying it to your own self, emotion isn’t really a magical addition to the recipe. It is nothing more or less than signaling from your brain when things favor or harm you in certain ways, encouraging you to repeat or avoid or enter some particular necessary mindset. How those “emotions” manifest exactly, could vary, I’m sure, but it would never be difficult (I suspect) to relate them to human emotions. Thus, even given a creature that doesn’t experience any human emotions, we’d still be able to map their own reactions back to familiar reactions of our own, and we’d slap a label on it and call it a day. Point being, if you were writing about such a species, it still might not seem quite as alien as you are hoping, even if it isn’t feeling precisely any of the emotions we’d immediately call our own. Does that make any sense? To put it another way, our ability to anthropomorphize is likely to outmaneuver nature’s ability to create distinct non-human emotional states.

 

[K174]

In following your replies, I’m not actually sure what you are looking for in this thread. Do you seek examples of non-emotionally-framed aliens? Or just thoughts on how to execute such a species? Or is this more of a statement of your own goals?

If you want truly alien aliens, I‘d first play with a lifeform that was not evolved by natural selection. An example might be an AI created by some progenitor species. Such a lifeform is free to have an arbitrary divorce from what we consider basic mechanics of living (such as emotion).

As for naturally occurring creatures, there is only one known (or theorized) scientific method for making life forms, and it is evolution through natural selection. Anything that developed naturally, on Earth or elsewhere, is therefore pressured towards certain lowest-friction solutions to the problem of living. Some kind of central nervous system with the ability to react to the environment with an understanding of how that environment affects its own well being is pretty unavoidable. Maybe that is a lack of imagination on my part, but I have undertaken the thought experiment without much luck. Once you are processing input and applying it to your own self, emotion isn’t really a magical addition to the recipe. It is nothing more or less than signaling from your brain when things favor or harm you in certain ways, encouraging you to repeat or avoid or enter some particular necessary mindset. How those “emotions” manifest exactly, could vary, I’m sure, but it would never be difficult (I suspect) to relate them to human emotions. Thus, even given a creature that doesn’t experience any human emotions, we’d still be able to map their own reactions back to familiar reactions of our own, and we’d slap a label on it and call it a day. Point being, if you were writing about such a species, it still might not seem quite as alien as you are hoping, even if it isn’t feeling precisely any of the emotions we’d immediately call our own. Does that make any sense? To put it another way, our ability to anthropomorphize is likely to outmaneuver nature’s ability to create distinct non-human emotional states.

Emotion free aliens I do not find interesting. Just get a robot if you want that.

Emotionally, physically, spiritually, or socially limited I do find interesting.

Imagine, even if that is not your thing as you say, just for a moment.

"Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me."

Imagine if that were true for a race.

Yet that cuts both ways, if words of others cannot hurt you, neither can they help heal you emotionally, and for such a race to actually survive, they would need to have some alternative way to deal with their negative emotions readily available.

Which it only requires imagination to provide. While I do have problems like any other writer, imagination is not one of them. Solutions come quickly.

You ask what I want. I will tell you what I want. Imagination. Show me yours. I have already shown you mine. Show me what you can imagine, not what others have done.

Rather, what can you do?

 

[sknox]

I read it as blunt rather than confrontational. I'm not sure number of posts earns a fellow any right to rudeness.

Anyway, I have plenty of imagination. I choose to use it on my own projects and have little interest in providing ideas to others, especially to someone who claims to have a surplus of them.

How to write compelling non-human alien behavior? Write it, show it to others, get feedback. . Arguing ideas and theories is fine for an afternoon at the pub, as long as no one starts to take it too seriously. I'll continue to look for proofs in puddings. That's the sum of my answer to the question.

 

[Brian G Turner]

You ask what I want. I will tell you what I want. Imagination. Show me yours. I have already shown you mine. Show me what you can imagine, not what others have done.

Rather, what can you do?

No offence, but that's not how it works here - a discussion is a discussion, nothing more. It's not something you make demands about, if you want to encourage people to keep discussing with you.

 

[K174]

No offence, but that's not how it works here - a discussion is a discussion, nothing more. It's not something you make demands about, if you want to encourage people to keep discussing with you.

This is treated not as a discussion, but more as a debate by several here. Perhaps all they really want is an echo chamber or a dogpile.

I read it as blunt rather than confrontational. I'm not sure number of posts earns a fellow any right to rudeness.

Anyway, I have plenty of imagination. I choose to use it on my own projects and have little interest in providing ideas to others, especially to someone who claims to have a surplus of them.

How to write compelling non-human alien behavior? Write it, show it to others, get feedback. . Arguing ideas and theories is fine for an afternoon at the pub, as long as no one starts to take it too seriously. I'll continue to look for proofs in puddings. That's the sum of my answer to the question.

You are absolutely right about ideas. As any author does, I use whatsoever I please and cut out what I do not want to use.

Whether that lines up with what others agree with or not, that does not control me.

I do not need new ideas per se on how to create.

I was just curious to see what all of you could come up with, and if any of it was interesting, since this IS a writers forum after all.

And if creativity goes to die in a writers online forum of all places.... then perhaps it does not belong here.

This is a forum of crticism, echo chambers for specific idealogies, and debates. So lets not delude and pretend that it this is a discussion free of those factors.

Because it is not.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

You have been here a few days and posted a few posts, and so far as I can see have not made much effort to take part in the activities and discussions already here. This does not seem to qualify you to judge this forum, the individuals here, their motives, or their creative abilities.

This thread seems to have run its course. If it was up to me, I would close it.

 

[K174]

You have been here a few days and posted a few posts, and so far as I can see have not made much effort to take part in the activities and discussions already here. This does not seem to qualify you to judge this forum, the individuals here, their motives, or their creative abilities.

This thread seems to have run its course. If it was up to me, I would close it.

I know more about forum than you think.

I can judge like the rest here, which is what everyone seems to enjoy doing here involving endless debates and critiques.

Zod was a villain sure but he was right about one thing.


Endless debates get no one anywhere.
Only action/effort does.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Endless debates get no one anywhere.
Only action/effort does.

Then I wonder that you have bothered to start a thread in a subform entitled Writing Discussion.

We come here to discuss and to critique and to exchange ideas. If you are looking for writing exercises, try the Workshop or the Writing Challenges. You will find plenty of activity and creativity there, particularly in the monthly and quarterly challenges.

 

[K174]

Then I wonder that you have bothered to start a thread in a subform entitled Writing Discussion.

We come here to discuss and to critique and to exchange ideas. If you are looking for writing exercises, try the Workshop or the Writing Challenges. You will find plenty of activity and creativity there, particularly in the monthly and quarterly challenges.

Was not aware of it.

Well assuming it's not more of the same over there, I may give it a try.

Thank you.

My apologies for any offenses I have committed to anyones feelings.

 

[tinkerdan]

To get back to the discussion:
I do find some elements influencing this important to understand.

The first thing is POV - since we're writing and discussing writing POV makes a difference in how aliens are portrayed in any piece of work.
What does he mean?
Well humans tend to anthropomorphize things often equating human behavior to even things that appear to have no agency; it's ingrained into culture in particular into writing. Even mythology attributes human behavior to the gods. Fables attribute human character to animals. It is possible to attribute human emotions to weather and even now and then refer to our environment as mother nature.

It is possibly more difficult to get into the alien mind than to attribute things to the alien from ourselves through observation. However if you can accomplish that as a POV then you have to remember that it is possible they will try to anthropomorphize and you will have to have them attributing behavior to other creatures even humans, from their own behavior. Through their observation.

Your narrator would have to be in the alien mind. Something particularly difficult to do since the person writing it will constantly by tempted to put their own human character into this creation. The best solution would be having the alien write those POV. Good luck with that because most of them consider books to be a waste of time.

The next thing to consider is the audience. If you become too alien, it might be too difficult for the target audience to read or even comprehend. However if it is written from the POV of the alien the alien will assume that it is all easy to empathize with and relate to because their observation shows that these beings exhibit this behavior which is so consistently parallel to their own behavior that it is uncanny.

Perhaps this is the second side of the Uncanny Valley coin. We expect certain identifiable character to an extent that we almost put it there where it doesn't exist. Yet if it weren't there then it might be difficult to continue on reading or continue looking at this alien thing that defies our preconceive notion about 'things'. Or if it goes too far into the alien we might become so disgusted we throw the book into the trash. Not because the portrayal of something alien is not done well, but because it is done so well it goes beyond the grain of what is expected which is something that hovers within the Anthropomorphic paradigm and has been twisted just enough to give a sense of alien but not look exactly alien.

The thing is, though, no one except the alien is going to know if the depiction of the alien comes close. Only the alien can sort out what we perceive as opposed to what is real about the alien. The beauty of this is that aside from alien readers the rest of the readers aren't going to know if the POV has gotten it correct and they might even care less.

There is a truth that there is no limit to what we can imagine. Except that there is a limit to credibility when it comes to what we know about physics right now and what we imagine in our science. If we go too far beyond the bounds of physics then we change from science fiction to fantasy unless something about physics knowledge changes drastically.

As far as imagining what is alien; we don't appear to have the same problem. However, on a more surface reflection we do, in respect that we have specific things we know about nature and life on this planet; which is what we have to extrapolate from. When we extrapolate too far we do reach the point of fantasy until our knowledge changes--so the truly alien in any of our fiction has the possibility of being too much fantasy.

The odd part of that is that we have discussions like this that wants to push in the direction that anything alien that looks and acts too human is probably fantasy.

I don't think we have enough evidence to go by to make that determination, so I'm happy even comfortable when someone takes culture and sociology and psychology and even biology and turns it a bit on its head to create what is alien; if they do it well.

What I'm saying is that the best way is to still extrapolate from what we know.

 

[K174]

To get back to the discussion:
I do find some elements influencing this important to understand.

The first thing is POV - since we're writing and discussing writing POV makes a difference in how aliens are portrayed in any piece of work.
What does he mean?
Well humans tend to anthropomorphize things often equating human behavior to even things that appear to have no agency; it's ingrained into culture in particular into writing. Even mythology attributes human behavior to the gods. Fables attribute human character to animals. It is possible to attribute human emotions to weather and even now and then refer to our environment as mother nature.

It is possibly more difficult to get into the alien mind than to attribute things to the alien from ourselves through observation. However if you can accomplish that as a POV then you have to remember that it is possible they will try to anthropomorphize and you will have to have them attributing behavior to other creatures even humans, from their own behavior. Through their observation.

Your narrator would have to be in the alien mind. Something particularly difficult to do since the person writing it will constantly by tempted to put their own human character into this creation. The best solution would be having the alien write those POV. Good luck with that because most of them consider books to be a waste of time.

The next thing to consider is the audience. If you become too alien, it might be too difficult for the target audience to read or even comprehend. However if it is written from the POV of the alien the alien will assume that it is all easy to empathize with and relate to because their observation shows that these beings exhibit this behavior which is so consistently parallel to their own behavior that it is uncanny.

Perhaps this is the second side of the Uncanny Valley coin. We expect certain identifiable character to an extent that we almost put it there where it doesn't exist. Yet if it weren't there then it might be difficult to continue on reading or continue looking at this alien thing that defies our preconceive notion about 'things'. Or if it goes too far into the alien we might become so disgusted we throw the book into the trash. Not because the portrayal of something alien is not done well, but because it is done so well it goes beyond the grain of what is expected which is something that hovers within the Anthropomorphic paradigm and has been twisted just enough to give a sense of alien but not look exactly alien.

The thing is, though, no one except the alien is going to know if the depiction of the alien comes close. Only the alien can sort out what we perceive as opposed to what is real about the alien. The beauty of this is that aside from alien readers the rest of the readers aren't going to know if the POV has gotten it correct and they might even care less.

There is a truth that there is no limit to what we can imagine. Except that there is a limit to credibility when it comes to what we know about physics right now and what we imagine in our science. If we go too far beyond the bounds of physics then we change from science fiction to fantasy unless something about physics knowledge changes drastically.

As far as imagining what is alien; we don't appear to have the same problem. However, on a more surface reflection we do, in respect that we have specific things we know about nature and life on this planet; which is what we have to extrapolate from. When we extrapolate too far we do reach the point of fantasy until our knowledge changes--so the truly alien in any of our fiction has the possibility of being too much fantasy.

The odd part of that is that we have discussions like this that wants to push in the direction that anything alien that looks and acts too human is probably fantasy.

I don't think we have enough evidence to go by to make that determination, so I'm happy even comfortable when someone takes culture and sociology and psychology and even biology and turns it a bit on its head to create what is alien; if they do it well.

What I'm saying is that the best way is to still extrapolate from what we know.

The key goal for me is to both entertain and just maybe, make some interesting characters who know how to commit, for better or worse, which was what Babylon 5 was largely about. Making commitments and sticking to them. Come what may.

I do favor humanoids because it is offers an array of paths to a writer:

1. We know the body plan works.

2. It encourages human/alien interaction more on all levels. Because lets face it, some humans would have difficulty even tolerating the presence of a slimey or ugly looking nonhumanoid alien.

Yet with humanoids, I force myself to make them behave somewhat differently than humanity, since I did not want to go the Star Trek or Babylon 5 route where aliens behave human 99% of the time.

The human/somewhat non-human alien culure clash would be quite entertaining to read/watch if written properly using show but don't tell in proper proportions.

In Trek aliens serve as shadows of our less desirable traits, whereas in Babylon 5 aliens are simply like humans with odd monocultures for their entire planet.

My method as already explained decides another way. Not because I think it is better per se, but because it is original inasmuch it is my idea and no idea is worth anything if not put into practice.

Only by putting it into practice will I see where it goes along with surprises. I believe it will entertain me and defy more scifi tropes than it already has.

Like here's one for example... the most powerful race in the galaxy could also be the most peaceful and the least warlike. While the weakest could be the most warlike.

In star trek it is often the opposite, but it is also true that with no killing by war, a civilization would have even more time for science research and development, along with more talent to pool from that is not killed off in warfare.

If one did choose to engage them in warfare, it would be like fighting God or a god. You know how that would turn out.

Alternately one could go the B5 battle of the godly races route, but I really do not intend to go that way as of present.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Anyway, probably best not to enter a community and then be insulting with everybody. In the meantime, I'll close this thread and any similar discussions can run on their own in a more pleasant atmosphere.