"to be" or no "to be"?

HareBrain

HareBrain

Ziggy Wigwag
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Starting a while back (with @Jo Zebedee , I think) I noticed some people on here and elsewhere saying for example "that needs fixed", when I would have said "that needs to be fixed" or "that needs fixing". At first I thought it was a Northern Ireland colloquialism, but then I noticed it was more widespread.

It never ceased feeling strange to me. But then today I caught myself saying "That needs some holes drilled in it". On the face of it, that's the same thing, isn't it? But it's not that I've adopted the colloquialism, I think, because I would have used the same sentence years ago, before I was aware of it.

Is my "drilled" sentence formally incorrect? Or is there a reason why it is correct, but the "Irish version" isn't, even though they seem the same?

(In case it needs saying, this is to satisfy my curiosity only, not because I'm trying to promote any particular "rule".)
 
I say a lot of things in an odd syntax which is, I’m pretty sure, just down to my wee Northern Irish ways. But, yeah, that needs fixed sounds right to me. I suspect it should be to be fixed but we talk very fast and drop anything not relevant. That needs fixing makes me think of a cockney in Eastenders.
 
It is a common colloquialism in parts of the eastern US.
Personally, it grates on my ear.
 
I think, "That needs some holes drilled in it" works. What could make it bad is either, 'That need holes.' or That needs drilled.' by then I'd just say, 'That needs fixed.' because it would work just as well. On the other hand I'd love to watch 'Holes drilling'.

Also what makes either way bad is that it's passive and you don't fix it by taking out to be because the subject is still missing.
You need to fix that.
You need to drill holes.
 
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To my ears, "that needs drilled" sounds odd but "that needs holes drilled in it" sounds fine. Perhaps it is due to the former being slightly more ambiguous? Or maybe it's because, in the latter, the holes are being drilled, not the thing itself, and that makes sense to me. It's essentially the same as saying "I drilled it" vs "I drilled holes in it". The first version bugs me. It needs fixing.

I suspect that "to be fixed" is the sole, technically correct version
 
It has to be in context and more importantly, it has a very awkward, choppy sound to it due to shifting immediately from present tense to past tense usage, because you can't perform anything in the past.
 
In conversation:
"That needs some holes drilled in it." Works fine.
"That needs holes drilled in it." Works fine.
"That needs to have some holes drilled in it." Works fine.

Sorry @Jo Zebedee ; 'That needs fixed' or 'That needs drilled' to my 'Merican ears sounds almost pidgin-esque to me. That's coming from someone who spoke pidgin most of their life and struggles not to, now.

K2
 
-K2- said:
Sorry @Jo Zebedee ; 'That needs fixed' or 'That needs drilled' to my 'Merican ears sounds almost pidgin-esque to me. That's coming from someone who spoke pidgin most of their life and struggles not to, now.

K2
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‘Tis okay. The Chronners once spent an entertaining evening making me say Kare and pear to hear my lovely ARR rolling. I’m unoffendable since you all speak wrong.

Anyhow this is interesting about the Irish syntax:
 
Jo Zebedee said:
Tis okay. The Chronners once spent an entertaining evening making me say Kare and pear to hear my lovely ARR rolling. I’m unoffendable since you all speak wrong.
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Hehe. I've been subjected (not by Chronners) to requests for the word 'murder' -- Mark McManus has a lot to answer for. :p

As to 'that needs fixed', it's in my vocabulary. If I was writing it out, I'd probably make it more formal and add 'to be'. Depends who I was responding to, but.
 
I've been requested to say "Get off the road, Mr Frodo" and "Gurt Mangold Wurzel" (not by Chronners). Heh.

Ok, I don't even know how else you're meant to say "That needs some holes drilled in it". What's missing? (Although "Stick some holes in that, will 'ee?" is obviously better).

"That needs fixed" = wrong. The correct usage is "Fix that sh*t". ;)

My partner recently pointed out that both me and my dad add "or no" onto the end of some questions, which apparently sounds very Somerset to his Essex ears. I have no idea if it's a Somerset thing. I do also say "or not" which I have heard him say. Which is also surplus to requirements.

e.g. "Do you want that? Or no?"
"Do you want that? Or not?"
"Do you want that?"


 
Mouse said:
I don't even know how else you're meant to say "That needs some holes drilled in it". What's missing?
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When I started the thread, I thought it should be "That needs some holes to be drilled in it", in the same way that "That needs fixed" might be "That needs to be fixed". But now I think it's not the same thing, though I don't quite know why it's not.

What I have become more sure of is that I have too much time on my hands. But that's ITV3's fault for running out of episodes of Poirot.
 
HareBrain said:
When I started the thread, I thought it should be "That needs some holes to be drilled in it", in the same way that "That needs fixed" might be "That needs to be fixed". But now I think it's not the same thing, though I don't quite know why it's not.

What I have become more sure of is that I have too much time on my hands. But that's ITV3's fault for running out of episodes of Poirot.
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Syntactically there is a difference. In "That needs fixed" needs has a subject - that - but no object so the subject of fixed is the phrase 'that needs' which doesn't really serve the purpose. When you put in "to be" 'needs' is now (I think) acting as a modal verb. In "That needs some holes drilled in it) even though you've left out the 'to be' you still have a meaningful subject for drilled. "That needs some holes" is a complete phrase whereas "that needs" is not.

That's my take anyway if it makes any sense.

For what it's worth I hate lazy language like that along with things like "my bad" which just expresses possession of an adjective!
 
"That needs holes drilled in it" could be rewritten as "That needs drilled holes in it" (not that one would write it that way), which can suggest** that "drilled" may be being used as a modifier rather than a verb, specifically a participle. (If the word was a participle, it ought to be the present participle, "drilling".)

"That needs fixed" may (at least to some) seem wrong because it's either a modifier attached to something that is not meant to be modified, or a verb in the wrong tense (a past participle rather than a present participle).

So -- and this is why I've gone over ground that others have been over already -- HB may be being made aware of the difference because his brain cannot come up with a grammatically valid reason for "fixed" to be used in its sentence, whereas his brain can do so for "drilled" in its sentence. This is something for which we, as writers, ought to be on our guard: another way of describing "being made aware" is "being pulled out of the story".


As an aside.... While the meaning of both sentences is clear in written English, in spoken English, "That needs fixed," can be heard as "That need's fixed." (My ears are rather attuned to that version: I've been both the writer of specifications and someone designing to them.)


** - This does not mean that the writer did not make a mistake (i.e. by using the wrong tense for the participle); it's just that s/he was lucky in that a grammatically valid interpretation could also be placed on what s/he wrote. ;))
 
Jo Zebedee said:
‘Tis okay. The Chronners once spent an entertaining evening making me say Kare and pear to hear my lovely ARR rolling. I’m unoffendable since you all speak wrong.

Anyhow this is interesting about the Irish syntax:
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I just like Irish accents in general, of the dialects I've heard. Upbeat, bouncy, and rolling, it's just rather uplifting and fun, just like the folk songs.

Scottish dialects from what I've heard, though, are still rather rolling but flatter, lower, and on the whole, just seems to be a more gloomy culture. I wonder if the weather has anything to do with it...?
 
Karn's Return said:
Scottish dialects from what I've heard, though, are still rather rolling but flatter, lower, and on the whole, just seems to be a more gloomy culture. I wonder if the weather has anything to do with it...?
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We have the best scenery, the best accents, friendliest people, the weather isn't always bad, it's good to be a Scot :)
 
Within the UK the Scottish accent was always considered to be one of the most trustworthy accents which is one reason why so many UK call centres have been set up in Scotland. I'm not sure that would apply to a trainspotting level Glaswegian accent though...
 
Ursa major said:
As an aside.... While the meaning of both sentences is clear in written English, in spoken English, "That needs fixed," can be heard as "That need's fixed." (My ears are rather attuned to that version: I've been both the writer of specifications and someone designing to them.)
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wUt?

K2
 
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