Thoughts on the 1981 Film Excalibur and other King Arthur Films

[Narkalui]

No historical Arthur @Venusian Broon and @BAYLOR? Surely you can't be certain of that... As far as I am concerned, in the jigsaw puzzle that is latter 5th century British history there is a missing piece that's distinctly Arthur shaped. Has anyone else read Arthur and the Lost Kingdoms by Alistair Moffat? I found that very compelling

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Do yourself a favor, don't watch this

I'm not saying that it was a particularly good movie, but it was by no means as bad as I thought it would be. The premise of a bunch of bikers playing at knights and chivalry and taking names from the Arthurian stories, then coming to take it all more seriously than they had probably intended, I had no trouble believing that. I'd spent enough years in the SCA to understand how such a group could evolve. The script didn't live up to what it could have been, but there were a handful of moments when it came close.

 

[HareBrain]

Watery tarts chucking swords at innocent passers by is no basis for a stable form of government.




Amen

I'm not sure about your "amen". At this stage I'd be willing to give it a go.

 

[CupofJoe]

And then, there is this... (coincidentally from 1981 like Excalibur):

Do yourself a favor, don't watch this

K2

I loved this film when I saw it [many many years ago]. And it has Ed Harris!

 

[Toby Frost]

By the way, John Steinbeck's book The Acts of King Arthur and his Noble Knights is really good.

 

[Venusian Broon]

The one thing about the Arthurian saga is how widespread it is across Britain. There are tales from as far afield as Cornwall, Wales, Glastonbury and even Scotland (Arthur's Seat and the Eildon Hills - where, it's claimed Arthur and his knights are asleep, waiting to be called once more).

You mean it was truly made up so people just said it occurred in their own back yard, because... why not?

Plus, the huge number of historical, semi-historical and legendary figures that are asleep in mysterious hills that will come to life to save their lands is going to make the Earth a crowded place when this moment of awakening occurs. It's going to give it a kinda olde worlde avengers feel methinks! Charlemane, Fredrick Barbarossa, Bran the Blessed, Francis Drake, Genghis Khan...

The legend should ( in my opinion) fill us with wonder and hope. Boorman's version captures that for me

I'm not sure about hope, there's definitely a bittersweet taste to it all, that Tolkien also used for his history of middle Earth; the passing of an age.

 

[Toby Frost]

There's clearly some vast showdown going to happen!

 

[Venusian Broon]

No historical Arthur @Venusian Broon and @BAYLOR? Surely you can't be certain of that... As far as I am concerned, in the jigsaw puzzle that is latter 5th century British history there is a missing piece that's distinctly Arthur shaped. Has anyone else read Arthur and the Lost Kingdoms by Alistair Moffat? I found that very compelling

Of course I'm not certain of it, it may be that the Arthurian legends have some sort of memory of the last stand and fall of a people against the onslaught of the Saxons & Angles. But I suspect if it is, it is only a tiny sliver. Yes, perhaps there was a 5th Century warlord, maybe nicknamed the bear (Roman soldiers would asscoiate with fearsome creatres on a regular basis, but then I suspect most warrior have done time immemorial), who carved out a kingdom - the last remnants of Romano-Britain, and checked the Westerly advance of the Saxons and other foreign tribes for a time, but then fell and England was then formed.

But so much of the legend and the stories were clearly made up in the 12th-15th century.

Off the top of my head there are older tales that centre around Merlin, from Welsh literature, but it seems clear that they dropped a great deal of his back story for the late medieval Arthurian stories.

I haven't read that book but have read and looked into others, and they don't convince. Sort of Holy Blood Holy Grail levels of deductions. i.e. Great fun to read and whip up excitement but with massive steps of mis-logic and gaps of evidence to prove dubious assertions! Who knows though, good evidence may appear out of a field one day.

I will have a look at your suggestion...although my TBR pile remains a teetering pile that I really should slim down by ploughing through a few dozen right now.

 

[svalbard]

The earlier Welsh stories of Arthur tell of a completely different figure to the one portrayed in GOM and Malory. He is a darker figure, a warlord and not a king, prone to a bit of pilaging and slaughter.

From The Goddodin which was composed in the late 6th early 7th century and paraphrasing here

"He fed black ravens on the ramparts, though he was no Arthur"

So even at that stage Arthur was a famous figure that loomed large in the minds of the British.

Excalibur is one of my favourite movies and captures the mood of Malory's Le Morte d'Athur upon which the movie is based. Some great performances such as Nicol Williamson as Merlin, Helen Mirren as Morgana etc. I also have the pleasure of growing up where the some of the movie was filmed.

 

[Vladd67]

You mean it was truly made up so people just said it occurred in their own back yard, because... why not?

Plus, the huge number of historical, semi-historical and legendary figures that are asleep in mysterious hills that will come to life to save their lands is going to make the Earth a crowded place when this moment of awakening occurs. It's going to give it a kinda olde worlde avengers feel methinks! Charlemane, Fredrick Barbarossa, Bran the Blessed, Francis Drake, Genghis Khan...



I'm not sure about hope, there's definitely a bittersweet taste to it all, that Tolkien also used for his history of middle Earth; the passing of an age.

I misread that as Brian the Blessed which is a whole different imagery.

 

[Venusian Broon]

I misread that as Brian the Blessed which is a whole different imagery.

I'm sure Brian Blessed will never die but go to sleep under a hill till the country needs him again

 

[Toby Frost]

I look forward to seeing him shouting Genghis Khan to death.

"KHAAAAAAAN!"

 

[Foxbat]

I'm not sure about hope, there's definitely a bittersweet taste to it all, that Tolkien also used for his history of middle Earth; the passing of an age.

That was the edited version. What I really wanted to say it could have a unifying effect on the people of Britain but felt that might be seen as straying into political grounds(especially right now) . This is when having a ban on such things here can make it really difficult to say what you mean.

Well, I've said it now...

 

[svalbard]

No historical Arthur @Venusian Broon and @BAYLOR? Surely you can't be certain of that... As far as I am concerned, in the jigsaw puzzle that is latter 5th century British history there is a missing piece that's distinctly Arthur shaped. Has anyone else read Arthur and the Lost Kingdoms by Alistair Moffat? I found that very compelling

I have read Moffat a good few years back. He is heavy on conjecture and etymology although I do not believe he is an expert on Brittonic. What he lacks is clear evidence that Arthur lived in Roxburgh on the Scottish Borders. Interesting book though but not for Arthurian reasons.

 

[Venusian Broon]

That was the edited version. What I really wanted to say it could have a unifying effect on the people of Britain but felt that might be seen as straying into political grounds(especially right now) . This is when having a ban on such things here can make it really difficult to say what you mean.

Well, I've said it now...

Okay, I see what you mean. Personally as a Scot Arthur doesn't really speak to me that way, given that many English kings tried to emulate the legend, as a way of justifying imperial expansion.

Plus if we are going to skirt politics, I'm more in the Republican camp, rather than divine rule of kings and watery tarts handing out swords...but maybe I'm going a bit too far in that analysis

(Not saying all Scottish/Pictish kings were angels, but well, I'm sure you know the history!)

EDIT: thinking about it, one of the reasons Boorman's Excalibur works so well, is that I think he strips out all the politics. I don't think Arthur is called King of the Britons, or any references to real places made. I think. I could be totally wrong! Happy to be corrected. (Yes, Duke of Cornwall is explicitly stated, but apart from that... )

 

[Foxbat]

Okay, I see what you mean. Personally as a Scot Arthur doesn't really speak to me that way, given that many English kings tried to emulate the legend, as a way of justifying imperial expansion.

Plus if we are going to skirt politics, I'm more in the Republican camp, rather than divine rule of kings and watery tarts handing out swords...but maybe I'm going a bit too far in that analysis

(Not saying all Scottish/Pictish kings were angels, but well, I'm sure you know the history!)

EDIT: thinking about it, one of the reasons Boorman's Excalibur works so well, is that I think he strips out all the politics. I don't think Arthur is called King of the Britons, or any references to real places made. I think. I could be totally wrong! Happy to be corrected. (Yes, Duke of Cornwall is explicitly stated, but apart from that... )

I was thinking more of how these kinds of tales can be used to stiffen resolve in adversity rather than as a tool for imperialist expansion. Laurence Olivier made his version in Henry V during WW2 in a bid to bolster morale. Hitler often referred to Barbarossa (and obviously used it as his codename for the invasion of the Soviet Union). Granted, Hitler probably did use Barbarossa as an expansionist tool so maybe a bad example there. But the point I was trying to make (rather badly) was that because the Arthurian Legend spanned all of Britain, it could be used in a similar manner.

 

[svalbard]

I was thinking more of how these kinds of tales can be used to stiffen resolve in adversity rather than as a tool for imperialist expansion. Laurence Olivier made his version in Henry V during WW2 in a bid to bolster morale. Hitler often referred to Barbarossa (and obviously used it as his codename for the invasion of the Soviet Union). Granted, Hitler probably did use Barbarossa as an expansionist tool so maybe a bad example there. But the point I was trying to make (rather badly) was that because the Arthurian Legend spanned all of Britain, it could be used in a similar manner.

It was used as political tool. The Norman Kings used GOM's History of the King's of Britain to legitimise their rule of first England and then their expansionist campaigns in Wales and Scotland. Arthur moved from a Romano-British hero to a Norman one. The Normans were returning to liberate England from the Saxons etc.

 

[Venusian Broon]

It was used as political tool. The Norman Kings used GOM's History of the King's of Britain to legitimise their rule of first England and then their expansionist campaigns in Wales and Scotland. Arthur moved from a Romano-British hero to a Norman one. The Normans were returning to liberate England from the Saxons etc.

Is there an 'Arthur' in Irish mythology/history? Or some sort of close analogy?

 

[svalbard]

Maybe the legend of Fionn Mac Cumhaill has some similarities.

I have read a theory about one Irish High Kings Muirchertach Mac Erca being a proto-type King Arthur figure but whilst entertaining it was complete fantasy. All it had going for it was that both could be plausibly dated to between 490 and 535.

I think what needs to be remembered is that you have a volatile situation with population movements at the time. Irish clans were moving into South Wales and Argyll up in Scotland. Northern British migrated down into North Wales. Saxon tribes were pushing in from Europe. Legends and stories were created and shared. I don't believe we will ever know the full truth but I did enjoy the search.

 

[BAYLOR]

The earlier Welsh stories of Arthur tell of a completely different figure to the one portrayed in GOM and Malory. He is a darker figure, a warlord and not a king, prone to a bit of pilaging and slaughter.

From The Goddodin which was composed in the late 6th early 7th century and paraphrasing here

"He fed black ravens on the ramparts, though he was no Arthur"

So even at that stage Arthur was a famous figure that loomed large in the minds of the British.

Excalibur is one of my favourite movies and captures the mood of Malory's Le Morte d'Athur upon which the movie is based. Some great performances such as Nicol Williamson as Merlin, Helen Mirren as Morgana etc. I also have the pleasure of growing up where the some of the movie was filmed.

Oh God I just noicted ! In my comment I put Nigel Terry as Merlin. It was Nicol Williamson as Merlin.