Character driven/plot driven - what is SFF all about?

[Star-child]

>I just don't think these terms exist to describe purely qualitative differences and exist for more useful reasons.

OK, so what are those more useful reasons? I'm looking for things in this discussion that might help me write gooder.

Teresa outlines how these terms were used as a way of "pantsing" your way through a story. The conception I found would be used for a well planned story where the author wants to control how the plot is going to demonstrate the character simultaneously to the plot resolution. Understanding the effects of exposing the character's thoughts and how that hems you in later in the story.

So this isn't a discussion about a technique as much as it is a way of understanding structure that might help you organize your planned approach to a story. I found thinking about this helped me understand why I enjoy different structures more than others and what I have to avoid to write the way I like.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Character-driven stories would lend themselves to "pantsing" but not plot-driven ones, where the author has everything planned out in advance and has arranged for events that leave the characters with little choice but to react in the way the writer has anticipated.

Of course a lot of writers do a bit of both. They'll make a careful outline of the events of the story, maybe write up character sheets for all the major characters ... and then put it all aside if better ideas occur in writing out the story. (Our original ideas are not always our best—some can be lamentably half-baked, so sticking with them would be stupid—but deepening knowledge of characters and their world in the course of writing about them may lead to something much better. On the other hand, original plans made in the grip of inspiration may indeed be brilliant, and change hardly at all in the course of writing.) Or a writer will seat-of-the-pants one story and find themselves sticking to the plan for another.

I don't think that the ideas of plot-driven and character-driven were meant to be tools for writing stories a certain way; I think they were meant as critical tools for reviewers and academics and students to analyze a story after it was written and published. I may be wrong, of course. A half a century ago when I was first introduced to these ideas it was in the classroom where we were studying literature, not writing it.

 

[Toby Frost]

I don't think that the ideas of plot-driven and character-driven were meant to be tools for writing stories a certain way; I think they were meant as critical tools for reviewers and academics and students to analyze a story after it was written and published. I may be wrong, of course. A half a century ago when I was first introduced to these ideas it was in the classroom where we were studying literature, not writing it.

I completely agree and I would say the same thing for The Hero's Journey, which has never seemed of much use to me as a writer except to say "This thing is quite like this other thing".

 

[Elckerlyc]

So, what can I learn from this thread? Just write and don't be too technical about it? In the end it's all about skill?
I understand you have some work to do before you start writing, like deciding it's going to be from the perspective of a well thought-out character and/or follow a carefully designed plot.
But besides that it seems to me that being too technical about it runs the risk of having written a technically beautiful organised and critically acclaimed literary work, but unfortunately also a drag to read.

 

[Venusian Broon]

So, what can I learn from this thread? Just write and don't be too technical about it? In the end it's all about skill?
I understand you have some work to do before you start writing, like deciding it's going to be from the perspective of a well thought-out character and/or follow a carefully designed plot.
But besides that it seems to me that being too technical about it runs the risk of having written a technically beautiful organised and critically acclaimed literary work, but unfortunately also a drag to read.

Most of my 'drags to read' have been authors that haven't been 'too technical' and have created gawd-awful messes

Some authors just need one draft and write out a great novel beautifully first time. Some need loads of prep and many years to craft great novels.

And I personally don't agree with your generalisation regarding the technicalities. Good writers of all hues and ways find the path that works for them. Just because you wouldn't use that writing style yourself as a writer, doesn't mean you should disparage them.

Find joy in as much reading as possible, no matter how the work was created, I say!

 

[Ursa major]

And I personally don't agree with your generalisation regarding the technicalities.

Well, there are technicalities...


...and then there are unhelpful clouds of vague waffle that reach no definitive conclusion.

 

[Star-child]

Well, there are technicalities...


...and then there are unhelpful clouds of vague waffle that reach no definitive conclusion.

And which unhelpful clouds of vague waffle are you referring to?

 

[Ursa major]

Can you think of a good reason why anyone would voluntarily keep a record -- particularly one that they could reel off when asked -- of the things that they consider to be of no use?

I can't.

 

[Star-child]

Can you think of a good reason why anyone would voluntarily keep a record -- particularly one that they could reel off when asked -- of the things that they consider to be of no use?

I can't.

How does your previous post pertain to this thread?

 

[Ursa major]

Have you nothing better to do than set tasks for other members of this site?

 

[Star-child]

Have you nothing better to do than set tasks for other members of this site?

Your post appeared to be yet another of your rude swipes at me, like the one your Mod colleagues had to delete a few weeks ago. But instead of assuming you were attacking me again, I thought I would ask what you meant.

Unsurprisingly, your reaction is to continue to be condescending. So I will assume the OP is the "waffle" you're bashing, and the warnings I've received from other members about you are correct.

There is little point in having a moderator insult the people he's charged to moderate. You make the experience of interacting here ugly and depressing.

I will never share anything like this OP on Chrons again. This experience has been awful.

 

[Phyrebrat]

will never share anything like this OP on Chrons again. This experience has been awful.

Ah, don’t say that! I’ve found the thread largely stimulating in terms of making me think about the two ‘disciplines’ even though there’s been some confrontation.

I’m not sure what my take is on all this (yet) but it’s nice to have such a comprehensive shakedown on the issues and beliefs raised therein.

Sorry to hear you’re not finding it enjoyable - in the hopes of mitigation; there are good days and bad here, but the former usually far outweigh the latter. And the people are really great. I appreciate that might not be your experience right now, but if you stick around I’m sure you’ll be happy you did.

pH

 

[sknox]

Ad hominem. It's so easy to fall into and it never leads any place good. Criticize the idea, not the speaker. And don't retaliate. Don't say "you said this about me." Even if they did. That's hard to do, especially if one feels one has been personally attacked, but I have yet to see anything good come from such a stance--either the initial ad hominem or the retaliatory response--and I've been in forums since the mid-1980s.

Also, apologies are an amazing currency. They cost the giver nothing yet bring benefits to the community.

[It's ironic that English uses "apology" as a synonym for "I'm sorry" when the original connotation actually means a defense of a position]

 

[Star-child]

Also, apologies are an amazing currency. They cost the giver nothing yet bring benefits to the community.

What is it you'd like me to apologize for?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

What is it you'd like me to apologize for?

At the risk of putting myself in the firing line again... sorry, but tone is so important. You pulled me up for mine, I apologised. But right from the first interactions on the thread your tone has appeared quite - embattled. You respond to so much defensively when there’s no real need to.

People will take their lead from that tone. It may not be intentional but it’s coming across that way.

For instance, earlier on the thread you indicated that there were some people whose posting style you felt was rude and dismissive - but no one challenged you as to who or why. They let it go. But when Ursa did something similar tonight you challenged him as to what exactly he meant.

Now it seems people are warning people about other members in private ways and then backs go up (that’s an Irishism, maybe? I’m not sure. But it means they’re on high alert).

This is not a post trying to attack you at all. But this is a forum where community is central and we do (mostly) try to be respectful of others’ posts.

As Phyrebrat says, this is an interesting discussion. I’m enjoying the various thoughtful posts. But I’m not enjoying (yeah, yeah, I’m aware it’s not all about me, but I’m assuming others feel the same way and, yes, of course I could be wrong) the sniping at each other.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I think this thread has run its course, so I'll close it now.