How much story to put in a short story?

The Big Peat

Darth Buddha
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How many beats/major scenes would you put into a short story? I'm fiddling around with some at the moment and struggling to get an answer I like. I normally do 8 or 9, but that seems to lead me to stories too long to really be sellable.
 
Seems like when I was trying to figure that out it was close to around 8 on an average depending on the size.
Oddly it worked out to be an average of 1500 words per scene.
or around 12000 words for around 30 pages.

The actual book of shorts had some that were only 4 to 6 pages with one scene break and some that were longer than 30 pages, but not much. Those had some scenes that were 100 words and others that were over 2000 words and others that were anywhere between, so it would most the time balance out.

So I think it really depends on how short you want your stories to be or how short they need to be for whom every you are writing them.
But if you could edit each scene to trim it down to be as concise as possible and keep the total word count per scene down to that or below it would probably make the right size.
 
I don't know how a person could decide ahead of time how many scenes would go into a short story. Word count, sure, mainly because most mags have a min/max. But surely if the story is, say 5k, then it's however many scenes it takes to tell a 5k story. I'm struggling to figure any other way to think about it. I've written four short stories, three published (fourth has yet to be submitted) and I don't think I've ever even thought about how many scenes were in each.

I'm curious: what about this made you figure it was important to know? No criticism here; genuinely curious.
 
Though a movie, how many scenes are there in '12 Angry Men?'

My point being, a short story could be one continuous scene, couldn't it? In contrast, it could be made up of numerous rather short scenes all affecting a singular outcome, yes/no? If so, and since the word count is variable, I'm not sure how you could place a number on the quantity of scenes, their lengths, and so on. The story plays out as it must, and only once you reach the end can you determine the result--for THAT story.

Simply the questions and musings of a novice...

K2
 
As many as it needs to tell the story properly. And if that is too many, then it wasn't a short story the author was telling at all.

Every story has it's own best length. It's not like a form with a certain number of blanks you are supposed to fill out. That would be much too mechanical. Sometimes something short can be expanded as the premise grows later in the author's mind, but I would personally beware of too much compression or lopping of a story that naturally wants to grow, or of stretching something out to an artificial length to fulfill some preset expectation.
 
I'm curious: what about this made you figure it was important to know? No criticism here; genuinely curious.

Because to me, it's the easiest way to work out/plan whether I've got the right amount of story and things happening - the word count doesn't help me, but a sense of "Okay, I've got seven discrete events to work with" works for me.

And it is easier for me to figure out what direction I want to take an idea by trying to see whether it fits the confines of a structure if I do the idea this way or that way, then it is to do the idea in X way and work out afterwards how I change it once written. I find my creativity more stimulated by working around constrictions than by having a blank empty page to fill; I don't like to keep going when I'm already working off a completely flawed start, as I don't like writing words I know there's not even a 1% chance I'll use.

And maybe because when you come down to it, I don't have the greatest instinctual understanding of story and am a lot happier with my writing when I have a structure or technique. I can bend that into whatever shape I want when I get going, I can redraft away the mechanicalness so nobody cares, I can in time incorporate those structures and techniques into my instinctual understanding (which is why I wouldn't ask this for a novel)... but just keep going and see where it goes? Nope. That's Grade A Bad Advice for me. Works for a lot of other people, but not me.
 
I'll start this with a disclaimer -- I don't "do" beats, which for me would be far too mechanistic. I write by instinct and let the story fall where it falls. For Kraxon, where I've had to produce an outline in advance for the series, I've concocted a story for each episode, but I've just gone for a beginning-middle-end approach, nothing more elaborate than that. When writing the story from the outline, this often resulted in three actual scenes, as I used scene breaks to increase pace and dispense with unnecessary filler, but it may well be there aren't in fact three beats per story -- there could be more or fewer, I've no idea -- as actual scenes don't necessarily correspond to beats, of course. (And incidentally, I've still spent hours taking a machete to the prose to make it fit the required word count...)

So it may well be I'm misinterpreting everything around the concept of beats. Therefore take what follows with a bucket-load of salt.

Anyhow, might it be an idea to start the other way around? What length of work do you think is sellable, and by how much are you overshooting at the moment? How long in word count does it take you to write each beat? Is the word count for each beat much the same within a story and from story to story?

If you want stories of only 5,000 words apiece, but you've calculated word count for each beat is roughly 1,000 words over each story, then there's your answer -- you have to restrict your stories to 5 beats.

If you find that there is no common word-length-per-beat, then that also gives an answer of sorts -- because the whole point of beats, I'd have thought, is pacing. So if the pacing is right, surely the beats should be cropping up at more or less the same word count. (Always allowing for the fact dialogue can be longer in word count than narrative, but can improve pace -- so you might need to look at narrative-heavy sections differently from those which are dialogue-heavy.) Can you affect this by borrowing my machete and tightening your prose, thereby bringing word count down?

If within stories there is a common length-per-beat, so pacing is fine for each individual story, but length-per-beat and pacing varies between stories, then that's a problem, as it means you can't extrapolate easily for new stories. Nonetheless, if you find this structure helpful, then it might be an idea to try and analyse further, to see if you can break down the stories in a way to reach a standard.

Otherwise, carry on experimenting. If you normally do eight beats, then for the next story try only four, and see if that gives you what you want in word count, making sure your beta readers don't feel shortchanged at the lack of story. But if any number of beats under eight leaves you unhappy, then it might be you're just not cut out to write shorts, and you should be looking at novellas.

Anyhow, good luck with it!
 
I don't tend to think of "beats", but one starting point might be to plan a short following the eight-point arc, with the central bits (surprise, critical choice, possibly climax) repeated once or twice. That wouldn't give you a particular number of major scenes, because some of the eight elements can be combined in one scene (or even one sentence), but I think it would give you a satisfying amount of story.
 
Because to me, it's the easiest way to work out/plan whether I've got the right amount of story and things happening - the word count doesn't help me, but a sense of "Okay, I've got seven discrete events to work with" works for me.

That's how I do it - I need a plan and don't trust panting it.

If you are deadly serious I would do some analysis of published works - as of now I have a pile of unopened Interzones - that's the sort of thing that would fit the bill well! Get rough wordcounts and break down their stories using your theory of 'beats'. Do they have 8-9 beats? If not what are they doing differently? If they are but managed to fit a story into 2000 words, say, what about their writing managed it?

It could be that the imposition of your 8-9 beat structure and your writing style will, at this moment in time, will never get you into short story territory. The last time I wrote for a 'market' the hard limit on a short story was 2000 words - it's not a lot! You have to be very succint and concise, it's a different challenge from doing a novel. (Although the process of short story writing to a low word count is I think a fantastic exercise that will also improve your novel writing.)
 
I am absolutely going to look at some of the stories out there and break them down and see how they work. Although there is a problem in that while I think 5k is the sweet spot for most of the publications I find, a lot of the best short stories tend a little longer, possibly because published authors tend to get a little leeway.

Although maybe I should aim at 2-3k as I do feel a little more home with those - that's where I'd hit in RPG fan-fic days. Introduce a situation, something unexpected happens, it is resolved, the world is changed.

That's how I do it - I need a plan and don't trust panting it.

I had a rough plan in my head when I started this one but basically just went for it to see how it felt and see if the structure when turned into language. I think just going for it was probably the quickest way to find out there were major problems with the idea I had - but I'm definitely of the mindset where I'd like to take what I found out, and try fitting it back into a plan to make it work again before I resume rather than just to keep going for it and see if it works out.

Or just move on to another story if I don't feel like this one fits into what's going to work.
 
I am absolutely going to look at some of the stories out there and break them down and see how they work. Although there is a problem in that while I think 5k is the sweet spot for most of the publications I find, a lot of the best short stories tend a little longer, possibly because published authors tend to get a little leeway.

Absolutely. I have come across 10k+ 'shorts' in some magazines, but if you are Bruce Sterling (insert your big writer of choice here) you can probably get away with it. :) Unknowns are better sticking to the guidelines!

Although maybe I should aim at 2-3k as I do feel a little more home with those - that's where I'd hit in RPG fan-fic days. Introduce a situation, something unexpected happens, it is resolved, the world is changed.

I found forcing yourself to that sort of wordcout was demanding but very rewarding.
 
Thanks for the reply. I understand that. Others have already offered the advice I would: look at the magazines you want to target, don't just read but analyze the stories. After twenty or so, you should have an idea of what your scene target would be.

I sort of work sideways to that. I come up with a story idea that feels like a short story (I usually write novels). I think about it enough, or maybe outline it, to confirm that it's a real story. That really does tend to include an idea of multiple scenes--at least three. Once I have that, and have my characters, I'll dive in.

Then, either it does come in somewhere around the story length limit for the mag(s), or the thing balloons. Four times I've come near enough to length that editing tames the beast. Once it turned into a novelette. Most recently I started one and by the time I had the roughest of rough drafts, I knew a short story wouldn't contain it. It's going to have to be a novella. So I put the little darling on the back burner (gonna hafta buy me more burners) and have gone back to my novel.

Coming at it from the scene level seems perfectly workable.
 
For the not-too-short short stories, you could use the seven-point plot, which has similarities to the eight-point arc HareBrain mentioned.

I read an article that said most successful stories (including films) follow the seven-point plot and gave examples.
 
Like @The Judge I don't set out to do beats. I try to stick with scenes, drilling down into beats is one step too close to formuliac for me. ITS A TRAP!
*ahem*

Following from what @AlexH and @HareBrain said you can go from the seven point to the sixteen point plot if you want more intricate ways to procrastinate ;)

Write the story... then find the market, you find your voice this way too.
 
A little update if anyone is interested -

While brooding on the idea that my basic idea felt untenable - too long, shaky on the logic, arguable lack of sympathetic characters, not quite fitting the brief (submission call here if people are curious) - I came up with an idea that was kind of a twist of a discarded plot I'd had for the submission call and stole some character dynamics from the movie Heat and basically got the idea formed in about five minutes. Spent most of the rest of yesterday fiddling with it to make sure it worked and that it'd fit, then started in on it late in the evening. Now over 2k words with a loose written synopsis to cover the unwritten bits; no real structure.

So arguably the moral of this story is sometimes you need a good bout of complaining and to throw your toys around the pram a wee bit, and then the subconscious will provide.
 

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