Doctor Who (38) 12:05- Fugitive of the Judoon.

[Vince W]

That was much better than last week. Two Doctors in the same universe? I wonder if we aren't actually in the Kasaavin universe.

Regardless of what two Doctors actually means I absolutely adore Doctor Ruth's TARDIS interior.

 

[M. Robert Gibson]

I'm just going to leave this two contrasting articles here

Doctor Who introduces a black female Doctor, making history... and throwing up a diversity smokescreen against bad ratings

Thirteen is an unlucky number, even for an alien Time Lord wanting attention. UK TV classic Doctor Who, amid a massive ratings slump, has unveiled a new incarnation of the lead character – injected with a new level of diversity.

www.rt.com

TV Shows Archives

At Comic Years, we are a trusted source for news on a wide array of TV shows. Do not hesitate to join our growing community and discussion groups!

comicyears.com

The second one throws up some interesting theories, except for the pre-Hartnell Doctor theory because, as it has been debunked here, why a police box?

 

[Dave]

If you read to the end of that second article, then Chris Chibnall also debunks some of the other theories regarding alternative realities when he says, "The important thing to say is – she is definitively the Doctor…. There’s not a sort of parallel universe going on, there’s no tricks. Jo Martin is the Doctor, that’s why we gave her the credit at the end which all new Doctors have the first time you see them. John Hurt got that credit."

On the TARDIS not always being a Police Box, IIRC while Susan complained about the TARDIS getting stuck (and since it got stuck as a Police Box you would have to assume that that did happen on Earth) there was no suggestion of how long they had been on Earth, other than that she was enrolled in school and seemed to be struggling there, and no suggestion of when they had left Gallifrey. Nor is there any suggestion that the Ruth Doctor's TARDIS is also "stuck." There isn't a great deal of room for manoeuvre, but it is possible that the Doctor had been to Earth several times before his stay with Susan, and that a police Box is the preferred state of the TARDIS when it materialises on Earth.

 

[Narkalui]

I suspect the writer of the first article is one of those people who privately doesn't like minorities or women.

The second article was good. I'd never heard of the Cartmel Masterplan before today, very interesting!

 

[Dave]

I suspect the writer of the first article is one of those people who privately doesn't like minorities or women.

It's from Russia Today (RT) and it quotes the Twitter account of David Vance. I don't think you need to worry that it is only a suspicion of yours. However, we don't discuss social politics here on SFFChronicles so can I ask that people don't discuss that article any further. Let's keep the discussions to the identity of the Ruth Doctor and the timeline, and let's leave out the reasons (real or imagined) for this particular addition to the mythos.

 

[Bagpuss]

while Susan complained about the TARDIS getting stuck

It's Susan who highlights that the Tardis's exterior changes before they leave Earth. It's Susan who then comments that the exterior hasn't changed in the second episode. When they arrive in the Stone Age at the start of the second episode. Although admittedly my recollection of that comes from the novelisation of the first serial, since I think the actual episode no longer exists.

and no suggestion of when they had left Gallifrey

Well, in the beginning, the producers didn't have a "Gallifrey". They didn't even have the concept of the Time Lords until the end of the Second Doctor's tenure when the Time Lords were introduced at the end of the Second Doctor serial: The War Games. They made it up as they went along.

I'd never heard of the Cartmel Masterplan before today, very interesting!

So, Andrew Cartmel was a script editor for the show in the 1980's (not the 1960's stated in the article) when Sylvester McCoy was the Seventh Doctor. The entire idea was to re-cast the Doctor as being one of the founders of Time Lord society, alongside Rassilon and Omega. This would cast the Doctor as "The Other", some mysterious figure that no longer really exists. The fore-shadowing of the plan appears in the Seventh Doctor being more manipulative than his predecessors. "The Other" appears as a character in the novelisation of the "Remembrance of the Daleks" serial, which was written by Ben Aaronovitch (who was also involved in the plan). Ultimately, the show was cancelled before they could do anything with it.

 

[Ursa major]

Maybe even a precocious 10 year-old Doctor?

Why oh why did you have to say this?

 

[Dave]

They made it up as they went along.

I'm glad they stopped doing that.

 

[Caledfwlch]

what is freaking me out a little and suggests strongly that Ruth Doctor does indeed either predate the first doctor or is somehow from far in the doctors and perhaps gallifreys past is Gatts reaction upon discovering 2 regeneration of the Doctor before her.

She "really" freaks out. Never mind the supposed danger to time and space, to her it's genuinely horrific, an "abomination" as she yells.
Thst suggests she is from some much earlier gallifreys given that no Timelord has ever before freaked out so much at the possibility of 2 regeneration of one Timelord being present together.

 

[Narkalui]

I really wanted to know more about Gatt. Then she killed herself (in an absolutely classic but very simple Doctor trap) and that annoyed me.

One thought that has occurred to me: the very presence of Ruth and Gatt suggests that The Master's destruction of Gallifrey is not a fixed point in space and time, therefore it could be undone. My logic in reaching this conclusion is so complex that I'm not sure I can explain...

 

[M. Robert Gibson]

My theory is that having the two Doctors is similar to what happened in The Three Doctors and The Five Doctors i.e. Ruth comes from a different time stream and not a parallel universe (especially since Chibnall has debunked that theory)
If I remember my Who history, every time a Time Lord regenerates, the old generation goes off on one time stream and the new generation goes off on a new time stream

Or something like that...

 

[Dave]

Or something like that...

That would work if this was merely about why see two Doctors. We've seen two or three Doctors together before, even more once. The only question then is from where in the history of the Doctor's many lives did Ruth Doctor come from, and there are only really the options of pre-Hartnell, after War Games, and in the future. The future also seems to be ruled out, leaving just the two remaining possibilities, though mind-wipes don't explain away set regeneration number limits broken.

My problem is that this seasons story-arc also seems to involve the Cybermen and the only Cybermen that could be brought back would be those from an alternative reality?? If we are building up to some end of season climax in which all the puzzles laid out will be solved at once, then the two things must surely be linked??? Why re-introduce Captain Jack with his cryptic clue if not?

 

[M. Robert Gibson]

I should have expanded on my theory. Different time streams and then further re-generations in each stream would explain why neither doctor has a memory of the other.

It's fun, all this conjecture, isn't it?
Of course, we could just watch the series and not bother, but where's the fun in that?

 

[nixie]

One thing about this episode it's got everyone talking and waiting on tender hook for the next episode.

 

[Caledfwlch]

Dave - the last Cyberman in fairness could be from any point in time & Cyber history. In the classic series Cyber timrline, The end of the Cyber Wars between the Cybes and Earth and its Allies which iirc Inc the Draconians and Voga (the planet of gold essential to providing "ammo" for the game changing gold firing glitter guns which occurred iirc in the 24th or 25th century, the Cybermen were effectively extinct, beyond a few small gangs of the so called Cyber Nomads, such as those as seen in Revenge of the Cybermen, until one such small dying band of survivors went to Telos and discovered the Tombs jam packed with Cybes awaiting wake up.

 

[Matteo]

Well...we didn't find out last night did we?

(goes away muttering to himself...)

Not being enough of a fan to look through various Who sites and read various theories, I didn't know about the War Games theory until reading it here. But I'm not sure that works since it was established at the end of Matt Smith's run that he had had twelve regenerations. Even if Ruth was an additional (single) regeneration in-between Troughton and Pertwee (with a mind-wipe), the Doctor would have reached twelve re-generations at the end of Tennant.

I think...

But I don't really like this idea since it's messing about too much with what we know (although I don't think there was an actual regeneration sequence of Troughton to Pertwee).

Pre-Hartnell could work as Ruth could have been on her twelve regeneration and then was given another full set - and had her mind wiped.

I think...

But I don't like that idea as it means the very first Doctor was not the first one - seems to go too much against canon.

 

[Dave]

the last Cyberman in fairness could be from any point in time & Cyber history.

Yes, they could really, but they have (until now) quite often ignored the "classic" Who canon, and in the modern Dr. Who, the Cybermen have all been from those that came first from the alternative world first seen with Eccleston and Rose (or so I thought.) I'm not going to argue with you as it is rather pointless when -

They made it up as they went along.

- is still true, however, if we want to guess where this is all going, we really need to get into the writers minds. It does seem that Chris Chibnall acknowledges the "classic" Who canon more than, say Russel T Davies or Stephen Moffat did.

 

[Bagpuss]

(although I don't think there was an actual regeneration sequence of Troughton to Pertwee).

There wasn't. At the end of The War Games the screen fades out on Troughton protesting about being forcibly regenerated. In the next serial, Spearhead From Space, the Tardis appears in Oxley Wood and Pertwee collapses out of it. We never actually see a regeneration from one to the other, although the regeneration process is implied to have started at the end of The War Games.

 

[AlexH]

I skipped a couple of episodes and just caught up on this one. I was thinking I might skip a few more but the last 10-15 minutes were intriguing so I'll probably check out the next episode.

The Ruth Doctor reminded me of River Song too. I also thought Jack's appearance rather pointless, and not that great, but I imagine it'll lead to something later in the series.

 

[Dave]

the last 10-15 minutes were intriguing so I'll probably check out the next episode.

Then you'll be disappointed! Just sayin'.