Sir Philip Pullman calls for 50p boycott over Oxford comma

AlexH said:
"should be boycotted by all literate people" isn't the sort of comment I expected from Philip Pullman. He's called plenty of very good writers illiterate.
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He said it for political reasons (which we aren't discussing). I doubt he was thinking of the literary merits, so we're doing that bit for him.

Personally, I add it when it aids my understanding of what is meant, and omit it when I'm not convinced it adds anything or it is stylistically appropriate not to. I think in the case of the coin no punctuation would be better.

I wonder if the Royal Mint has a style guide for putting words on coins…
 
thaddeus6th said:
This nonsense about the new 50p has really annoyed me.

Because I used to have both the hands and stars 50ps and now I have no idea where they are. Humbug!

[At least I've still got my much-sought-after Kew Gardens 50p].
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I've got the Sherlock Holmes, Peter Rabbit and Benjamin Bunny, you could give me the Kew Gardens then I'll have four supposedly sought after 50p coins ;)
 
AMB said:
He said it for political reasons (which we aren't discussing). I doubt he was thinking of the literary merits, so we're doing that bit for him.
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I was going to say that myself, but it doesn't change my thoughts about the comment.
 
Nixie, I've got a couple of the Beatrix Potter ones. Don't think I have Sherlock.

The Kew Gardens (original, not the re-release a decade later) 50p might be the most valuable.

There are also lots of really nice £2 coin variations (I especially like the slavery and Large Hadron Collider ones). The stupid rubbish new £1 coins don't have any special versions that I've come across so far, but I'm sure they'll get around to that.
 
HareBrain said:
I debate the use of the word "debatable". You can have "co-prosperity with" of course, but not, I suggest, "prosperity with".
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I said it was a poor example, but the rules of the Chrons forbid me from providing a more relevant one.
 
Elckerlyc said:
@Overread

We tried that in the Netherlands with Dutch spelling. Gah, what a chaos! Every decade a new revision with new spelling rules.
I can't write in Dutch without a dictionary. Simply because I completely lost track of the current spelling. Which btw doesn't always make more sense than the old spelling did.
Language has evolved over the millennia by the spoken word, by people who are basically lazy when it comes to pronunciation. There simply isn't much logic in it.
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I'm curious, does Dutch have similar 'rules' like 'i before e' and the Oxford comma?
 
We do not have a Dutch equivalent of the Oxford comma. Just one common style. Which is complex enough as it is.

Double-letter vowels are: aa, ee, ei, ie, oo, oe, ui, uu, eu, ou.
The multiple form of a noun can be : noun + s, + 's, + en or + ën. This depends on the last letter(s) of the noun (vowel or not), on which syllable the stress is falling, if pronunciation might give difficulties and whether the word itself gets unclear (due to the many double-letter vowels).

I won't bother you with rules dealing with adjectives, diminutives and concatenated words (which is unlimited in Dutch).
The real trouble starts when they feel the rules should be altered.
To give an example: the word 'pancake' (Dutch 'pannekoek') must now be spelled as panscake (pannenkoek).
Why? Originally 'pan' was an adjective. A cake you baked in a pan -> became pan+cake. Now the rule is: No, no, no, wrong! pan is a noun. There are many pans in the world which you can use to bake cakes, therefore you must use the multiple form: pans+cake. Bookcase -> bookscase etc
Makes sense, right?
Words starting with a C suddenly must start with a K (except when...). Well no, lets change that back (except when...).

I can accept spelling is complicated, but changing it (repetitively) is destructive.

Luckily Dutch didn't suffer such a great vowel-shift as English has undergone, which ruined the logic of your spelling.
 
Cydramech said:
Refusing to use an Oxford comma is like calling your best friend a prostitute.

...and like, this too:
It's unwise.
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But is it wise to use something that does have its uses, in certain circumstaces (as you've demonstrated), in circumstances where it isn't needed (which is most of the time)?

Might I suggest that where an Oxford comma is needed, and it's only used when it is needed, the very rarity of its presence further aids comprehension: seeing it, the reader is made aware that, without it, there would be a risk of misinterpreting the text.

So, as the saying goes, "it's horses for courses", i.e. use the Oxford comma where it is needed; don't use it where it isn't needed.


And apropos of nothing (other than that I laughed when I first read it):
If all you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a thumb.
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Ursa major said:
But is it wise to use something that does have its uses, in certain circumstaces (as you've demonstrated), in circumstances where it isn't needed (which is most of the time)?

Might I suggest that where an Oxford comma is needed, and it's only used when it is needed, the very rarity of its presence further aids comprehension: seeing it, the reader is made aware that, without it, there would be a risk of misinterpreting the text.

So, as the saying goes, "it's horses for courses", i.e. use the Oxford comma where it is needed; don't use it where it isn't needed.


And apropos of nothing (other than that I laughed when I first read it):
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It should go without saying. The usage of anything is to not use it where it is unnecessary. (At least, in my territory it goes without saying: obvious should the use of a tool include its lack of utility.)
 
For me, it's always been an issue of cadence. The comma signifies a greater-than-normal pause, which is a very recognizable part of speaking a list out loud. Usually, when speaking, the pause between the penultimate item and the final "and" is entirely the same length as the others. "Amy...Rebecca...Tom...and Sarah."

Conversely, whenever someone omits the comma, in my head it always reads something more like, "Amy...Rebecca...Tom and Sarah," which never feels right to me. So I tend to use the final comma. Although you may occasionally see me using a a bastardized cousin of both in longer lists, for example:

There was dust. There were tables, chairs, chests, and wardrobes, and little embroidered cushions and old army blankets and books and smelly papers in every single corner of that God-forsaken attic.

But that's completely just a style thing. I'm not sure there's a "right" way to do it--with comma or without--except as personal preference (and yes, clarity) dictates.

For me, the inclusion of the comma is as individual and nebulous as the idea of personal style.

(And then, of course, there was the little boy who decided there had to be lots of jam in heaven, because he read in his catechism that God "makes(,) preserves and redeems us." ;) )
 
Margaret Note Spelling said:
For me, it's always been an issue of cadence. The comma signifies a greater-than-normal pause, which is a very recognizable part of speaking a list out loud. Usually, when speaking, the pause between the penultimate item and the final "and" is entirely the same length as the others. "Amy...Rebecca...Tom...and Sarah."
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After trying that out a few times, I'd argue that the "and" tends to be downplayed in speaking a list like that, and so creates a pause in itself.

AMY REBECCA TOM-and-SARAH

So a comma and "and" might be redundant. But that's getting very picky, and anyway would depend on the particular speaker. I agree with the general point about cadence, which I think should probably be the primary concern when writing fiction. I've sometimes spent far too long debating whether to use a comma or not, and ended up wishing we had a semi-comma as well.
 
Margaret Note Spelling said:
For me, it's always been an issue of cadence. The comma signifies a greater-than-normal pause
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This.

And seeing a comma in this way can be a useful way of deciding, when one is faced with two grammatically correct options for a phrase or sentence, which one should be used, thereby avoiding some of the more esoteric arguments one might have with oneself over the grammar.


** - When one knows how one wants the sentence to sound, that is; otherwise.... :eek:
 
HareBrain said:
After trying that out a few times, I'd argue that the "and" tends to be downplayed in speaking a list like that, and so creates a pause in itself.

AMY REBECCA TOM-and-SARAH

So a comma and "and" might be redundant. But that's getting very picky, and anyway would depend on the particular speaker. I agree with the general point about cadence, which I think should probably be the primary concern when writing fiction. I've sometimes spent far too long debating whether to use a comma or not, and ended up wishing we had a semi-comma as well.
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It would be useful to be able to count the commas in a James T Kirk script
 
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