Please help a poor newcomer...

[tinkerdan]

I would echo some others about getting in 30 posts and possibly posting a piece of the work for review.
I started work on mine in the 1970s and spent five years making mostly trash.
Then life got in the way and I didn't get back to it until 2001; though it was always churning in my mind all that time.
It took someone snooping into my stuff to get me started when they said, 'Hey, why haven't you done anything with this.'
so in 10 years of edits and cuts and everything else I still had a monster.
Wish I had discovered this place before I did; however I don't regret that I went with self publishing.

Published at the end of 2012 because my dad was dying and I wanted him to read it. (He did or at least had help with someone reading it to him.)
The question is; what is your big motivator to publish it in a hurry now?

And then; do you have more story in you and maybe you should get that started while trying to get interest in this one.
Do you write to write or do you write because you are hungry; no judgement, but they do require differing tactics.

Just some thoughts.
I've got more; however I have to feed that hungry part right now.

 

[BT Jones]

This says something in and of itself. If you're wanting to lean up your 'acts' by 20/30/20k words, 25/30/20% respectively, 23% overall (300k words)--massive portions of text--then you likely shouldn't be sending these to publishers or agents yet. Again, I'm not published or experienced by any means. But, they'll be wanting something closer to ready to print. Their own editors, I suspect, are not there to refine 'your story,' yet only adjust it to their guidelines.

My inexperienced gut says, perform your trimming down first and see how that changes the story, the start of each part and ends. Then see where it sits. What could you then shift or add to give you better three-part/novel-endings, and bring it inline with preferred lengths as @Ashley R makes note of.

This is something I've had to consider myself.

K2

Thanks K2. I think you are right, but its a touch call because it takes so long for agents to respond and for these things to gain traction. But then, I suppose, it’s no point giving an agent the first 3 chapters of the final draft and then not have the next seven to give to them if they ask for it. Maybe I’m just impatient, but I feel I’ve had so much momentum these last six months, the idea of sitting in my own bubble refining it again for 6 months feels crushingly restrictivie.

 

[BT Jones]

I would echo some others about getting in 30 posts and possibly posting a piece of the work for review.
I started work on mine in the 1970s and spent five years making mostly trash.
Then life got in the way and I didn't get back to it until 2001; though it was always churning in my mind all that time.
It took someone snooping into my stuff to get me started when they said, 'Hey, why haven't you done anything with this.'
so in 10 years of edits and cuts and everything else I still had a monster.
Wish I had discovered this place before I did; however I don't regret that I went with self publishing.

Published at the end of 2012 because my dad was dying and I wanted him to read it. (He did or at least had help with someone reading it to him.)
The question is; what is your big motivator to publish it in a hurry now?

And then; do you have more story in you and maybe you should get that started while trying to get interest in this one.
Do you write to write or do you write because you are hungry; no judgement, but they do require differing tactics.

Just some thoughts.
I've got more; however I have to feed that hungry part right now.

I’m hungry, desperate to get these characters out into the world and to tell my story. I probably rather naively wish I could generate enough interest to justify quitting my job and writing full time, but hearing your story, amongst others, suggests that may well be a pipe dream.

 

[tinkerdan]

I have a day job; so it's not hunger and I write to write, I can now take my time.
I've self published two novels and this year I took the first, which needed work, and split it into three novels all around 100k plus.

And that brings me to another thought.
Doing that involves taking three acts and making 9 acts and turning each three into a full story.
So, unless you already have that built into your work, it will be more work to get your broken pieces weaved back together.
Something to consider if you decide to break the novel up.

I already had to break that first novel and that's how I got the first two.

Breaking the novel again was tough though I had a bit of it built into the writing.

On self publishing:
You need to be willing to work hard.
You are going to be the agent/publisher/editor in the long run because everything that is wrong with your work will fall on you.

And you really need to give your best to those who are willing to pay for your work.

That means you will have to endure or enjoy reading the whole thing many many many many many...times.

 

[Brian G Turner]

it takes so long for agents to respond and for these things to gain traction

I probably rather naively wish I could generate enough interest to justify quitting my job and writing full time

That's why you use time while pitching a book to write your next. Publishers appear to commonly want one a year.

 

[BT Jones]

That's why you use time while pitching a book to write your next. Publishers appear to commonly want one a year.

Yeah, I had a plan to do one a year, but I would only be able to manage that if I wasn’t working full time. This one has taken me 5 years as a background hobby!

 

[BT Jones]

I have a day job; so it's not hunger and I write to write, I can now take my time.
I've self published two novels and this year I took the first, which needed work, and split it into three novels all around 100k plus.

And that brings me to another thought.
Doing that involves taking three acts and making 9 acts and turning each three into a full story.
So, unless you already have that built into your work, it will be more work to get your broken pieces weaved back together.
Something to consider if you decide to break the novel up.

I already had to break that first novel and that's how I got the first two.

Breaking the novel again was tough though I had a bit of it built into the writing.

On self publishing:
You need to be willing to work hard.
You are going to be the agent/publisher/editor in the long run because everything that is wrong with your work will fall on you.

And you really need to give your best to those who are willing to pay for your work.

That means you will have to endure or enjoy reading the whole thing many many many many many...times.

So you have already self-published the novel but are going back to it to expand it?
For my stories, they are already preordained. There are 10 of them, all mapped out and plotted. I have a detailed database of everything that happens to all the characters, all the threads, etc. I know where this is going (or at least where I want it to go).
On a separate note, you are not the first person to have suggested getting 30 posts and then putting some of my work up for review. Is this a definite forum rule that I missed?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Yes, newcomers can only post something they've written in the critiques section when they have 30 counted posts. You are almost there. If you decide you want to do it, read the rules for the critiques section first, to make sure you aren't posting an excerpt that is too long, etc. (There is no rule that says you have to post something for critique. That is completely up to you. If several people have suggested it, it's just because they think it might benefit you to do so.)

The critiques here are meant to be constructive. Compared to some critiques I have seen elsewhere, they are tactful and kindly meant. But ... if you are not used to having several people at once point out all the things they think you should address, the experience can be a bit overwhelming. So be sure that you are ready for what follows before you ask for a critique.

In fact, it would be a good idea to read some of the critiques that have already been posted, maybe participate in the process by critiquing someone else's excerpt, before you ask for critiques on something of your own. That way you will know what to expect. (And if you do a few critiques on the work of others, it will add to your post count and help you reach 30 a bit sooner.)

 

[BT Jones]

In fact, it would be a good idea to read some of the critiques that have already been posted, maybe participate in the process by critiquing someone else's excerpt, before you ask for critiques on something of your own. That way you will know what to expect. (And if you do a few critiques on the work of others, it will add to your post count and help you reach 30 a bit sooner.)

Thanks Teresa, that sounds like a good idea. I will give that a go.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Thanks K2. I think you are right, but its a touch call because it takes so long for agents to respond and for these things to gain traction. But then, I suppose, it’s no point giving an agent the first 3 chapters of the final draft and then not have the next seven to give to them if they ask for it. Maybe I’m just impatient, but I feel I’ve had so much momentum these last six months, the idea of sitting in my own bubble refining it again for 6 months feels crushingly restrictivie.

Don’t send it out. Wait until it is ready. And certainly don’t until we’ve had a chance to check out your opening

 

[BT Jones]

Don’t send it out. Wait until it is ready. And certainly don’t until we’ve had a chance to check out your opening

Thanks Jo, it’s a really great feeling to know all you guys are here to help! I will keep plugging away and aim to post some excerpts in the not too distant future.

 

[Tirellan]

I have a list of UK agents who will consider SF/F on my website here: http://martinowton.com/pdf/sf.pdf
There is pretty decent list of US agents for SF/F here: https://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?42019-A-compiled-list-of-SF-Fantasy-agents

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I should also have mentioned, while I was on the subject of doing critiques, that you can learn a lot by critiquing, sometimes even more than by being critiqued, BT Jones. Seeing one's own mistakes in someone else's work, where one doesn't have the emotional investment, can be illuminating.

 

[BT Jones]

I have a list of UK agents who will consider SF/F on my website here: http://martinowton.com/pdf/sf.pdf
There is pretty decent list of US agents for SF/F here: https://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?42019-A-compiled-list-of-SF-Fantasy-agents

Thankyou Tirellan, I will take a look.

 

[BT Jones]

I should also have mentioned, while I was on the subject of doing critiques, that you can learn a lot by critiquing, sometimes even more than by being critiqued, BT Jones. Seeing one's own mistakes in someone else's work, where one doesn't have the emotional investment, can be illuminating.

Thanks Teresa, yes I think I will give it a go once I am back from holiday and back in my working / creative space.

 

[Ambrose]

In the 'crime novel' world in the UK it is notable that the first books by such as PD James and others are fairly slim. The authors are then allowed greater wordage as they establish a readership - i.e. their efforts sell. One factor is the 16 page swatch in book production. Publishers want to hit either full or half swatches. The same is true of sf novels so far as I can see.

 

[BT Jones]

In the 'crime novel' world in the UK it is notable that the first books by such as PD James and others are fairly slim. The authors are then allowed greater wordage as they establish a readership - i.e. their efforts sell. One factor is the 16 page swatch in book production. Publishers want to hit either full or half swatches. The same is true of sf novels so far as I can see.

Hi @Ambrose. Can you tell a novice like me what a 16 page swatch is?

 

[Ambrose]

Hi BT Jones

Traditionally books are printed on large sheets of paper, 8 pages a side. The position of a page on each side is crucial. When a sheet is folded appropriately, and then cut, that produces 16 sequential pages on a central spine. That is a swatch. An 8 page swatch is a 16 page swatch cut in two, or a 4 page per side sheet - both systems were used. Publishers want to print to that sort of configuration for reasons of production costs: - use no 'excess' paper. The separate swatches are bound together to make the book. You can see the swatches making up a book if you look at the base of the spine. UK printers used to number the swatches and print the number of each at the bottom of the page as each swatch started. The US may be different as to printing numbers.
The number of swatches in a book feeds through to the wordage publishers preferred. Allow for title and half title etc, and you will see that 60K words is about right for 8 16 page swatches with c. 475/500 words per page. But you must count each page as having 500 words or so depending on font size, ie. assume all the lines have words. 42 lines of 1 word dialogue = c. 500 words if taken at 12 words a line: not 42 words. So the computer calculation of your wordage can be wildly astray in the numbr of pages it needs, and therefore in a potential publisher's eyes.
Some modern printers use smaller 'sheets', but swatches are still created for use on their remarkable machines where you can put a bale of paper on at one end, the text soon after that, the jacket near the end, and proper books appear at the end.
In some modern book manufacturing processes swatches are not used. I recently self-published a book and there are no swatches in the Print on Demand version..

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

The number of words per page depends on more than just the font size. There are other elements to the formatting, such as the size of the spacing between the lines. And 475/500 words per page would be quite high at most publishers. I'd guess the average these days is more like 400 words or even a little less. But it can vary a lot. When you send something into a publisher (supposing they ask for the full manuscript), they'll have their own ways of figuring out the eventual word and page counts, which will probably come out to be a lot more than what the author's home computer tells them. Of course an agent or editor will know to allow for that. But that just means that if you tell them your book is 300K words, they'll mentally translate that to something a lot higher.

 

[BT Jones]

Thanks @Ambrose and @Teresa Edgerton. The more and more I hear, the more I think I am better off going electronic / kindle and potentially self-pub. I just don't think what have I done will necessarily appeal to publishing houses looking for short, digestible product for the modern consumer with no time on their hands. I think my work will end up probably only appealing to a niche market that has time for immersive, long-form works. That's obviously going to mean it reaches far fewer people but... Not sure what I am doing can be carved up and served as fast food.