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I say, publish and be damned while you rake in the filthy cash.
Firearms in Fantasy: Is there a stigma to that?
- Thread starter MikeAnderson
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.matthew.
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MikeAnderson
A.K.A. TRICKY DICK NIXON!
It's more of a social-political thing, which I'm careful about discussing on this site, but more and more people seem to not like firearms, period. In the U.S., there's been more calls to restrict or ban weapons, and even media that promotes gun violence.
MikeAnderson
A.K.A. TRICKY DICK NIXON!
That's why I love this site; the input I've received is great. Appreciate it, folks.
Let us please stick with firearms as they have been used in fantasy or science fiction or this thread might not last long.
All the the arguments that I have ever seen against guns—or any technology more advanced than swords—in fantasy have been on the grounds that once magic is developed beyond the most primitive level in a fantasy world then all technological development would come to a shuddering halt. But that is absurd. For if it were so, then in most fantasy worlds that we have been reading about all these years there would be no swords, no wind mills or water wheels, etc. etc. etc. Magic users would do it all. A look at the most popular fantasy novels of the last seventy years or so shows a very different picture than that.
And that is not how the real world works, either. One method of doing something does not immediately squeeze out all others. Did people stop using swords the moment more-or-less accurate fire arms were invented. No they did not. Did cars immediately eliminate horses. No. Once we had airplanes did everyone take to the air and leave cars behind. No again.
And besides, this "magic would put an end to technological development" is a tired old argument from the days before steampunk came on the scene, or at least before steampunk was so popular. As we have seen, there is steampunk of a science-fictional bent, and there is steampunk with a fantasy bent where magic and machinery go together in a way that many readers find utterly satisfying. And now there is black powder fantasy, gaslight fantasy, and so forth. (And lets not forget futuristic science fantasy that was written as far back as the early twentieth century.) Some readers want to stay forever with the old quasi-medieval type of fantasy (which wasn't so very accurately medieval anyway) and then there are those who want to see fantasy that harks back to the old historical adventure classics, set in various periods, that they read growing up. Some of us would like to read fantasy in a variety of settings. Why should we not? Why need we limit ourselves? I happen to like black powder fantasy not because I am fond of guns (I'm not) but because there is a particular long period that appeals to me for other reasons that serves as an appropriate inspiration for blackpowder fantasy. It's not about the gadgets. It's about the kind of stories that a certain historical set-up lends itself to.
Depending on whether a writer is trying to appeal to the widest possible readership, or is happy to write what pleases them personally and will be happy to find a niche audience that is just waiting for something like what they want to write, there is room for everyone these days. That's the good news. We will always find plenty of people willing to say that their favorite form of fantasy is the purest, the most superior form, but we need not listen to them. We can choose to read and write what we want.
All the the arguments that I have ever seen against guns—or any technology more advanced than swords—in fantasy have been on the grounds that once magic is developed beyond the most primitive level in a fantasy world then all technological development would come to a shuddering halt. But that is absurd. For if it were so, then in most fantasy worlds that we have been reading about all these years there would be no swords, no wind mills or water wheels, etc. etc. etc. Magic users would do it all. A look at the most popular fantasy novels of the last seventy years or so shows a very different picture than that.
And that is not how the real world works, either. One method of doing something does not immediately squeeze out all others. Did people stop using swords the moment more-or-less accurate fire arms were invented. No they did not. Did cars immediately eliminate horses. No. Once we had airplanes did everyone take to the air and leave cars behind. No again.
And besides, this "magic would put an end to technological development" is a tired old argument from the days before steampunk came on the scene, or at least before steampunk was so popular. As we have seen, there is steampunk of a science-fictional bent, and there is steampunk with a fantasy bent where magic and machinery go together in a way that many readers find utterly satisfying. And now there is black powder fantasy, gaslight fantasy, and so forth. (And lets not forget futuristic science fantasy that was written as far back as the early twentieth century.) Some readers want to stay forever with the old quasi-medieval type of fantasy (which wasn't so very accurately medieval anyway) and then there are those who want to see fantasy that harks back to the old historical adventure classics, set in various periods, that they read growing up. Some of us would like to read fantasy in a variety of settings. Why should we not? Why need we limit ourselves? I happen to like black powder fantasy not because I am fond of guns (I'm not) but because there is a particular long period that appeals to me for other reasons that serves as an appropriate inspiration for blackpowder fantasy. It's not about the gadgets. It's about the kind of stories that a certain historical set-up lends itself to.
Depending on whether a writer is trying to appeal to the widest possible readership, or is happy to write what pleases them personally and will be happy to find a niche audience that is just waiting for something like what they want to write, there is room for everyone these days. That's the good news. We will always find plenty of people willing to say that their favorite form of fantasy is the purest, the most superior form, but we need not listen to them. We can choose to read and write what we want.
My own preference is for fantasy in more modern settings (not all involve guns).
Heinlein's 'Our Fair City' and 'Glory Road'
Boucher's 'The Compleat Werewolf'
Blish's 'There Shall Be No Darkness'
Williamson's 'Darker Than You Think'
And though a bit further back in time, but still involving guns - any of Lindskold's Prudence Bledsoe stories. Prudence is a bit of a gunwoman, though she certainly has no need to be. I'm a fan
Heinlein's 'Our Fair City' and 'Glory Road'
Boucher's 'The Compleat Werewolf'
Blish's 'There Shall Be No Darkness'
Williamson's 'Darker Than You Think'
And though a bit further back in time, but still involving guns - any of Lindskold's Prudence Bledsoe stories. Prudence is a bit of a gunwoman, though she certainly has no need to be. I'm a fan
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Two works I've not seen mentioned so far are Jonah Hex (graphic novel and film), and Wynonna Earp (graphic novels and cult TV show, growing in popularity).
They're not prose novel form, but the way they resonate with people shows there's a demand. Just look at Buffy to see another example. Fantasy is not, and never has been, restricted to sword and sorcery. There is Urban Fantasy (and Rural Fantasy), Paranormal Romance, and a raft of others. Of course there will be some who won't read it, but there will be plenty of people who will give it a chance.
They're not prose novel form, but the way they resonate with people shows there's a demand. Just look at Buffy to see another example. Fantasy is not, and never has been, restricted to sword and sorcery. There is Urban Fantasy (and Rural Fantasy), Paranormal Romance, and a raft of others. Of course there will be some who won't read it, but there will be plenty of people who will give it a chance.
Jim Butcher's Dresden Files series mixes magic with guns - there's at least one scene where an entity is defending against being magically attacked, and instead is terminally surprised by a .45 bullet...
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Firearms in Fantasy.
Surely the there is endless potential for there use while still remaining true to the genre.
Merely as a potion delivery system for instance. Not every gun needs to be directly lethal.
How better to throw a charge of holy water infused Lavender seeds that turn the Goblins into nervous wrecks or whatever.
Surely the there is endless potential for there use while still remaining true to the genre.
Merely as a potion delivery system for instance. Not every gun needs to be directly lethal.
How better to throw a charge of holy water infused Lavender seeds that turn the Goblins into nervous wrecks or whatever.
Overread
Searching for a flower
One thought on the whole "magic stops technological development" is scale of magical ability within the population. If everyone can cast powerful spells at a whim then I would expect technology to slow and stifle with significant gaps.
However if magic is very draining on the person and/ or limited to only a small portion of the population, then technoligy should not be stifled unless those with power are working against it (a bit like DEATH breaking the first harvester in Soul Music, even though he knows it is a futile act)
However if magic is very draining on the person and/ or limited to only a small portion of the population, then technoligy should not be stifled unless those with power are working against it (a bit like DEATH breaking the first harvester in Soul Music, even though he knows it is a futile act)
MikeAnderson
A.K.A. TRICKY DICK NIXON!
In this world, magic and industrial age tech work with each other; it just takes special components and modifications to make it work. A regular Colt Single Action Army made of steel couldn't handle arcane flow, but one cast from specific metals could. And in this alternate realm, magic use can and does cause long term health problems. The main character explains to his assistant that using magic is like burning coal in a steam engine; overuse or too much pressure and heat output damages the equipment. Same with magic; you'll see casters in this realm with all sorts of nasty ailments; tumors, premature aging, failing organs and prosthetic limb. Magic use comes with a heavy price tag.
Oh, and I decided this will be a hard adult novel. The Y.A. book isn't my style, and with a lot of concepts based off the real era (racism, colonial expansion, warfare going industrial), this will be a pretty gritty novel.
Laura R Hepworth
Lady of the Rings (chainmaille rings that is)
I so go for it. Yes, some people might have issues with it, but, given the time period, their arguments would be rather flawed. A lot of fantasy is set in medieval or Renaissance era inspired worlds where the use of a gun would just be out of place, but in later eras it's perfectly fine. Anyone who says that guns can in no way be used in a fantasy book clearly hasn't read an urban fantasy. Besides, there is a sub-genre call science fantasy and it sounds like this would fit right just fine. Your world, your rules.
DLCroix
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Hi! Absolutely agree. And I think two things are the main ones that lead you to make that decision, at least based on the saga I'm writing.
1. You write the story you want to read.
The one you have visualized all these years while walking down the street and you have felt it as real and detailed as a movie. Well your brain, your personal blender where all the things you see or read are mixed, is not thinking about gender classifications or thematic censorship. It gives you a product according to your own personality, and even though you could manipulate that visualization already turned into a novel (with your mind set to a Ya, for example), it is not always possible, or you realize that it will lose its power or original purity, and something in your head will not stop ringing like a bell telling you that you are corrupting something that was unique and valuable. Or that you are selling you to the market.
Exactly the same thing happens with music.
Also, unconsciously everything you can write has a framework of possibilities previously determined by what Harold Bloom calls "Anatomy of Influence". There are writers that you like more than others; then it is inevitable that some of that will be reflected in your stories. And, BTW, when it comes to studying a subject, the Civil War, for example, one also searches for books even by authors that one does not know. Or you see series like "The Blue & The Gray", "North & South" and, of course, "God & Generals".
There are also gender issues. Eroticism, for example. On the one hand, in sci-fi novels it has a rather naive treatment while Fantasy far surpasses it. Still, self-imposing a PG puts automatic restrictions on you.
Although it is obvious that at the time of the Secession men were much more courteous and delicate and people in general more naive. Ex: Picnic civilians trying to get a good panoramic view at the actions in the Battle of Bull Run and when it all goes to hell they running away like rabbits.
2. The conceptual and ideological framework of a story defines its target audience.
As you say, developing all those concepts (racism, colonial expansion, warfare going industrial) a Ya reader will surely understand them, but most likely, they will get bored. In the same way, a magic flint weapon will interest the Ya only as long as they see it firing.
Instead, an adult will most likely want to know how that weapon works, and he will even be disappointed if he does not see any explanation, even minimal.
In fact only a few details are needed.
He does not need to know that the Argall spark arrester (it just occurred to me, you can use it if you wish) that makes the weapon work comes from a mineral that is only found in an African mine, but that had to go into jungles to obtain it , fight with wild beasts and cannibal tribes and also nobody knew where that mine was, so they first had to find a priest of the order of, etc, because he was the only one who knew where the damned mine was, etc, etc. No. All you have to do is tell what mineral the mysterious and magical Argall spark is made of.
Suspension of disbelief doesn't take much theory to rule out the Deux ex Machina. The reader will see that there is a certain material, metal or alloy that he did not know and will accept that it has some importance in history. And then, based on that, he will continue to accept and consider as logical all the subsequent conflicts that may arise derived from the importance of these materials. What do I know, these can be:
» Contraband of Argall.
» Kidnapping of mystic alchemist engineers who are experts in arcane flow.
» The desertion or murder of an important scientist or mystic.
» Derailment of a federal train carrying valuable pipes and condensers whose unique utility in the world was that they could resist the dangerous instability derived from the industrial process to manufacture certain ammunition.
» The unexpected flight of slaves who were to be assigned to these dangerous industrial tasks. As you say, if the "magic use can and does cause long term health problems", this also produces a conflict of a moral nature. So perhaps it is necessary to resort to people who have no chance to question anything or claim their rights, forced to work on something that they will lead to death or sure deformation. In other words, cheap labor.
Also, going back to those concepts (racism, colonial expansion, warfare going industrial), contrary to young readers, an adult will always read willingly a reasonable development of all that. He wants to know what the narrator of your story thinks about the various issues behind a certain conflict. And history will seem weak or insufficient if he doesn't see it.
1. You write the story you want to read.
The one you have visualized all these years while walking down the street and you have felt it as real and detailed as a movie. Well your brain, your personal blender where all the things you see or read are mixed, is not thinking about gender classifications or thematic censorship. It gives you a product according to your own personality, and even though you could manipulate that visualization already turned into a novel (with your mind set to a Ya, for example), it is not always possible, or you realize that it will lose its power or original purity, and something in your head will not stop ringing like a bell telling you that you are corrupting something that was unique and valuable. Or that you are selling you to the market.
Exactly the same thing happens with music.
Also, unconsciously everything you can write has a framework of possibilities previously determined by what Harold Bloom calls "Anatomy of Influence". There are writers that you like more than others; then it is inevitable that some of that will be reflected in your stories. And, BTW, when it comes to studying a subject, the Civil War, for example, one also searches for books even by authors that one does not know. Or you see series like "The Blue & The Gray", "North & South" and, of course, "God & Generals".
There are also gender issues. Eroticism, for example. On the one hand, in sci-fi novels it has a rather naive treatment while Fantasy far surpasses it. Still, self-imposing a PG puts automatic restrictions on you.
Although it is obvious that at the time of the Secession men were much more courteous and delicate and people in general more naive. Ex: Picnic civilians trying to get a good panoramic view at the actions in the Battle of Bull Run and when it all goes to hell they running away like rabbits.
2. The conceptual and ideological framework of a story defines its target audience.
As you say, developing all those concepts (racism, colonial expansion, warfare going industrial) a Ya reader will surely understand them, but most likely, they will get bored. In the same way, a magic flint weapon will interest the Ya only as long as they see it firing.
Instead, an adult will most likely want to know how that weapon works, and he will even be disappointed if he does not see any explanation, even minimal.
In fact only a few details are needed.
He does not need to know that the Argall spark arrester (it just occurred to me, you can use it if you wish) that makes the weapon work comes from a mineral that is only found in an African mine, but that had to go into jungles to obtain it , fight with wild beasts and cannibal tribes and also nobody knew where that mine was, so they first had to find a priest of the order of, etc, because he was the only one who knew where the damned mine was, etc, etc. No. All you have to do is tell what mineral the mysterious and magical Argall spark is made of.
Suspension of disbelief doesn't take much theory to rule out the Deux ex Machina. The reader will see that there is a certain material, metal or alloy that he did not know and will accept that it has some importance in history. And then, based on that, he will continue to accept and consider as logical all the subsequent conflicts that may arise derived from the importance of these materials. What do I know, these can be:
» Contraband of Argall.
» Kidnapping of mystic alchemist engineers who are experts in arcane flow.
» The desertion or murder of an important scientist or mystic.
» Derailment of a federal train carrying valuable pipes and condensers whose unique utility in the world was that they could resist the dangerous instability derived from the industrial process to manufacture certain ammunition.
» The unexpected flight of slaves who were to be assigned to these dangerous industrial tasks. As you say, if the "magic use can and does cause long term health problems", this also produces a conflict of a moral nature. So perhaps it is necessary to resort to people who have no chance to question anything or claim their rights, forced to work on something that they will lead to death or sure deformation. In other words, cheap labor.
Also, going back to those concepts (racism, colonial expansion, warfare going industrial), contrary to young readers, an adult will always read willingly a reasonable development of all that. He wants to know what the narrator of your story thinks about the various issues behind a certain conflict. And history will seem weak or insufficient if he doesn't see it.
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