How Long Humanity?

What a great way to find new folks to war with. Think about it, self-sufficient colonists build an independent society upon a rich planet, and here comes old-earth folks wondering 'why they're not slaving away digging up resources to send home-world.' I'm of the opinion that no matter how much we might physically evolve, we're significantly farther away from maturing.

K2
Alright Mr half-empty ;)

I disagree though with the 'slaving away digging up resources to send home-world' trope. That's just pure hokum that is propagated by C-list SF movies. I can't see how that would make sense given the vast resources that are just lying about that aren't part of an actual ecosphere.
I feel your still thinking like a 20th Century human. :)

Anyway away from that aside, Yes, we can be brutal, violent, selfish and evil. But we can also be kind, peaceable, emphatic and strive to be good. Half way between an animal and a god. (Although from my cursory reading of religion, it's the gods that come across as pretty bad, so perhaps we should upend that metaphor) We know which way we should be going as a goal, no? Violence does appear to be dropping amongst us as time goes on - despite what your TV screens may be screaming at you.

This made me think though about aggression in our species. Like it or lump it, it's part of us right now. We see the negative consequences of course, but it also fuels our creativity and curiosity. Without that drive would we not be something else? I'm not saying it's a great thing to have this constant aggression, but perhaps it was necessary for where we have got to now.

As for our lack of foresight about ecological issues it is depressing, but how many animals and plants in the past have selfishly eat their way through their ecological niche and made themselves or many other species extinct by changing the world? Yes, before you tell me, not quite on the scale we're managing to do it (although I think a shout needs to go out ot the blue-green algae that started the Great Oxygen Holocaust). At least there is some glimmer of longer-term thought on the consequences of our actions and a few of us are starting to look to the long-term, something we can be pretty sure those cyanobacteria didn't bother themselves much with.
 
Alright Mr half-empty ;)

I disagree though with the 'slaving away digging up resources to send home-world' trope. That's just pure hokum that is propagated by C-list SF movies. I can't see how that would make sense given the vast resources that are just lying about that aren't part of an actual ecosphere.
I feel your still thinking like a 20th Century human. :)

Anyway away from that aside, Yes, we can be brutal, violent, selfish and evil. But we can also be kind, peaceable, emphatic and strive to be good. Half way between an animal and a god. (Although from my cursory reading of religion, it's the gods that come across as pretty bad, so perhaps we should upend that metaphor) We know which way we should be going as a goal, no? Violence does appear to be dropping amongst us as time goes on - despite what your TV screens may be screaming at you.

This made me think though about aggression in our species. Like it or lump it, it's part of us right now. We see the negative consequences of course, but it also fuels our creativity and curiosity. Without that drive would we not be something else? I'm not saying it's a great thing to have this constant aggression, but perhaps it was necessary for where we have got to now.

As for our lack of foresight about ecological issues it is depressing, but how many animals and plants in the past have selfishly eat their way through their ecological niche and made themselves or many other species extinct by changing the world? Yes, before you tell me, not quite on the scale we're managing to do it (although I think a shout needs to go out ot the blue-green algae that started the Great Oxygen Holocaust). At least there is some glimmer of longer-term thought on the consequences of our actions and a few of us are starting to look to the long-term, something we can be pretty sure those cyanobacteria didn't bother themselves much with.


The difference is that we know what we are doing to ourselves and to our planet, but continue to do so because it is easier and cheaper. One thing that has always stuck with me is how in HHGTTG the new arrivals on earth use leaves as currency, but then start burning down all the forests to stop it from being devalued. Another is Adam's opinion that 'those people who most want to rule people are , ipso facto, those least suited to do it.... people are a problem.

I agree that it is our aggression, our drive, is what brings out the best in us, but also the worst.
 
Ehh, I'm not so sure I agree--half empty or full regardless-- @Venusian Broon ; Throughout ALL of human history, new colonies are continually marked by the rare few 'gifted power' by the originating nation's government (or in this discussion's world), who usually already have some standing back home...and then everyone else. That everyone else, building their new life away from the home nation/planet, typically seeks autonomy, however, those back home feel they've invested, and so are due. To further complicate the matter, those folks who are aligned with the home nation, once they realize there is little for them back home--yet nothing in the new land because it's laid claim to by the home nation--also switch sides.

It's an old story that hasn't changed in human history. So whether it's an island, nation, continent, or world, I see little reason for that fact to change in the near to distant future.

K2
 
The difference is that we know what we are doing to ourselves and to our planet, but continue to do so because it is easier and cheaper. One thing that has always stuck with me is how in HHGTTG the new arrivals on earth use leaves as currency, but then start burning down all the forests to stop it from being devalued. Another is Adam's opinion that 'those people who most want to rule people are , ipso facto, those least suited to do it.... people are a problem.

I agree that it is our aggression, our drive, is what brings out the best in us, but also the worst.

The problem is that aggression is a key component of our survival. if we dispense with it completely , We'd go extinct.
 
Ehh, I'm not so sure I agree--half empty or full regardless-- @Venusian Broon ; Throughout ALL of human history, new colonies are continually marked by the rare few 'gifted power' by the originating nation's government (or in this discussion's world), who usually already have some standing back home...and then everyone else. That everyone else, building their new life away from the home nation/planet, typically seeks autonomy, however, those back home feel they've invested, and so are due. To further complicate the matter, those folks who are aligned with the home nation, once they realize there is little for them back home--yet nothing in the new land because it's laid claim to by the home nation--also switch sides.

It's an old story that hasn't changed in human history. So whether it's an island, nation, continent, or world, I see little reason for that fact to change in the near to distant future.

K2


People want what others have got; it's an age old problem and it's something I'm not sure that we as humans will ever shake off.
 
[The Time Machine](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/35) (that @BAYLOR mentioned) is a classic in imagining time up to the death of Earth. I am always impressed by Well's imagination in that book.

[The Machine Stops](https://www.ele.uri.edu/faculty/vetter/Other-stuff/The-Machine-Stops.pdf) doesn't go quite that far, but is very imaginative.

Saturn's Children takes on a post human world, but not a post Earth one.

There is one novel, which I started reading, then lost track of (which is a problem with the Kindle) involves humanity many millions of years in the future, where people make multiple copies of themselves and have multiple adventures and then fuse together again.
 
Ehh, I'm not so sure I agree--half empty or full regardless-- @Venusian Broon ; Throughout ALL of human history, new colonies are continually marked by the rare few 'gifted power' by the originating nation's government (or in this discussion's world), who usually already have some standing back home...and then everyone else. That everyone else, building their new life away from the home nation/planet, typically seeks autonomy, however, those back home feel they've invested, and so are due. To further complicate the matter, those folks who are aligned with the home nation, once they realize there is little for them back home--yet nothing in the new land because it's laid claim to by the home nation--also switch sides.

It's an old story that hasn't changed in human history. So whether it's an island, nation, continent, or world, I see little reason for that fact to change in the near to distant future.

K2

Well it depends on what the future holds. I'm not sure that the scenario you put there will ever take place in this universe with us humans.

So...I have been watching/listening to a lot of Isaac Arthur and I kinda agree with some of his views on what might happen. Why go to the expense of trying to travel the vast distances to perhaps find a planet that might be close to Earth (and then promptly put yourself at a huge disadvantage by living at the bottom of another big gravity well!), when one can populate the Solar system with a Dyson swarm of habitats, all suited to whatever environment we desire - perhaps giving you up to a billion times the land area of the Earth.

The technology 'tree' to get there isn't too futuristic - we'd probably like fusion to get going and to be advanced so that not only are we getting energy from it, we're also getting new elements as well...

...well, okay, quite a lot other things would be required, but not things that we can't imagine doing right now. And yes, getting up to a billion Earth's 'space' would take a while building vast numbers of habitats and orbitals, so there will be teething problems ;) :)

And if we do want to go to other stars, just build habitats around that star when you reach there and leave the planets alone, especially if they have alien life. Let's visit and explore, not land and colonise these places.

Now what would terms like government or land rights mean to a billion+ societies that can just build new O'Neil cylinders if they wanted to expand - and how would any singular entity hope to control all such entities? A citizen of a Dyson swarm may look back at our government and society like we look back at hunter gatherer societies.

Okay, my cuppeth floweth over with optimism, but I like the arguments for it. Colonising alien planets seems so old-fashioned to me now! ;)
 
Well @Venusian Broon ; to add to your optimism, you could probably consider that since the biggest difficulty in landing on any world is having the fuel to launch off it...the idea of any significant back and forth would likely be negated for some time. Establishing an orbiting space station as a staging point, I'd think would be a priority. Yet, for the most part things and people go down, but little if anything besides data comes back up.

So, until gravity repulsion systems are developed, I suspect would limit any conflict.

K2
 
Look, in the short time we all have left, I suggest we would be better enjoying the little time we have and hoping the end isn't today.
 
This made me think though about aggression in our species. Like it or lump it, it's part of us right now. We see the negative consequences of course, but it also fuels our creativity and curiosity. Without that drive would we not be something else? I'm not saying it's a great thing to have this constant aggression, but perhaps it was necessary for where we have got to now.
I think this is not only completely wrong, but also rather dangerous. It's basically colonial mentality. Creativity is nothing to do with aggression, 99% of which is socially sanctioned thanks to the boys' society we live in. Creativity comes from our status as conscious individuals. It is our natural response to experiencing the world. I do think human beings are naturally exploratory and inquisitive - yes! But that has to do with the fact that we make mental models of the world. Nothing whatsoever to do with aggression.
 
Well, we still MUST explore other worlds. Otherwise, where will we put our garbage?

Arcadia 234, Waste Disposal Planet, from Soldier
junker.jpg


Well, that is after we fill up the Los Angeles Municipal Waste Processing, from Blade Runner 2049
br03.png


See, I am optimistic! It's WALL-E's job to worry about. ;)


K2
 
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Well, we still MUST explore other worlds. Otherwise, where will we put our garbage?

Arcadia 234, Waste Disposal Planet, from Soldier
junker.jpg


Well, that is after we fill up the Los Angeles Municipal Waste Processing, from Blade Runner 2049
br03.png


See, I am optimistic! It's WALL-E's job to worry about. ;)


K2

In the Harry Harrison book Bill The Galactic Hero . Trooper Bill came up with a novel way of disposing of Trash . His solution, mail it to people all over the galaxy. :D
 

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