Has The Fantasy Genre become Stuck in One Place ?

[BAYLOR]

Fantasy has always existed one form or another and, one could argue probably since literature itself began but, didn't really have its own genre classification until about the 20th century. The pulps and writers like Robert E Howard and his his imitators and many descendants gave us the category of the heroic fantasy and Tolkien, though he didn't invent to concept of world building and epic fantasy, was a catalyst in it's and popularity . In the course of time, traditional heroic fantasy, whose heyday run was roughly from the 1920's to about the early 1980 's , pretty much exhausted itself and fell by the wayside. Epic fantasy with its world building , complex plots , cast of thousands characters, maps , glossaries indexes and multivolume format seems to have become the dominant mode of fantasy. The question is, has fantasy become stuck in one place and mode? Or does it still have the possibility to continue evolving ?

Thoughts?

 

[Stephen Palmer]

I think Tolkien's influence is difficult to overstate, and, imo, the genre remains tied to his template - basically Western, essentially British, basically mediaeval, essentially male. There are plenty of other types of fantasies from elsewhere - for instance Tomi Adeyemi's Children of Blood and Bone and Children of Virtue and Vengeance - but these, alas, are modern exceptions. I hope such works don't constitute a blip in the generally male, Western style of things. I'm aware that lots of fantasy authors are female, but unfortunately women's work has been massively downplayed by the male-dominated publishing industry, even when, as with Ursula LeGuin, they were globally recognised.

 

[Toby Frost]

I can't think of another genre that has been crushed and stunted by a single author the way fantasy has by Tolkien. That's not Tolkien's fault, and virtually all the circumstances (except him being good at what he did) were out of his control. Also, I can't think of another author who is revered in quite the same way. Perhaps Shakespeare and Jane Austen, but I'm not sure even they count.

However, I wonder if pop culture has changed the stereotype of fantasy (at least outside novels) to look less like Middle Earth and more like the Dungeons & Dragons handbook. I've been playing it a bit recently, for the first time in many years, and was surprised just how much of a random jumble it is. The image I have is of an American Renaissance Fayre, except that all the costumes work.

Anyway, I think things have changed, or have started to change. The range available to the reader is now much greater than it was. While I think the mock-Medieval settings and heroic quests will continue (and there's nothing really wrong with that) a wider variety of stories is also available. That's surely a good thing.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

The irony is, D&D has so much to thank one author for: Jack Vance.

 

[BAYLOR]

The irony is, D&D has so much to thank one author for: Jack Vance.

Jack Vance ? Interesting . I had always thought it was Gary Gygax, Dave Arneson and Andre Norton.

 

[Toby Frost]

Funnily enough I thought it was Fritz Leiber (with a bit of Michael Moorcock). This is going to end up like one of those videos where different bands claim to have been the inspiration for Spinal Tap!

 

[BAYLOR]

Funnily enough I thought it was Fritz Leiber (with a bit of Michael Moorcock). This is going to end up like one of those videos where different bands claim to have been the inspiration for Spinal Tap!

Lieber and Moorcock ? Given what they wrote , I can see that .


Spinal Tap , The greatest fictional Rock and Roll band in all of fiction.

 

[M. Robert Gibson]

The irony is, D&D has so much to thank one author for: Jack Vance.

I always assumed it was Gary Gygax and co.

A quick search opened my eyes

Where does the magic in D&D come from?

Have you ever wondered where magic came from? Well, wonder no more!

nerdsonearth.com

Advanced Readings in D&D: Jack Vance - Reactor

In “Advanced Readings in D&D,” Tor.com writers Tim Callahan and Mordicai Knode take a look at Gary Gygax’s favorite authors and reread one per week, in an effort to explore the origins of Dungeons & Dragons and see which of these sometimes-famous, sometimes-obscure authors are worth rereading...

www.tor.com

and according to Wikipedia
"According to the original Dungeon Masters Guide in "Appendix N: Inspirational and Educational Reading", the "most immediate influences" were the works of Robert E. Howard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, A. Merritt, H. P. Lovecraft, Fritz Leiber, L. Sprague de Camp, Fletcher Pratt, Roger Zelazny, and Michael Moorcock. Subsequently, Gary Gygax listed the "major influences" as Robert E. Howard, L. Sprague de Camp, Fletcher Pratt, Fritz Leiber, Poul Anderson, A. Merritt, and H. P. Lovecraft, with "slightly lesser influence" from Roger Zelazny, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Michael Moorcock, Philip José Farmer, and others.

Monsters, spells, and magic items used in the game have been inspired by hundreds of individual works ranging from A. E. van Vogt's "Black Destroyer" (the Displacer Beast), Lewis Carroll's "Jabberwocky" (Vorpal sword) to the Book of Genesis (the clerical spell "Blade Barrier" was inspired by the "flaming sword which turned every way" at the gates of Eden)."

 

[The Scribbling Man]

I do not read a lot of fantasy, so it is hard for me to judge. But then again, I don't read a lot of fantasy almost solely because of the topic at hand - as someone with a mild interest who has only dipped their toe, it comes across as stuck, repetitive, churned out, derivative. Anything that remotely hints at turning to clichés/tropes established by Tolkien is an immediate turn off. And while I'm sure there are unique works out there, I'm not really willing to do the digging required. When I want to read fantasy, I nearly always turn to the past.

Also, I think LeGuin's Earthsea is a great example of original post-Tolkien fantasy.

 

[Vladd67]

It's interesting to see how Pratchett's Disk World evolved from a cliched medieval fantasy world to a medieval world with a Victorian overlay.

 

[nixie]

Simple answer no, there is still a lot of books out there that are clearly influenced by Tolkien and dungeons and dragons but there are numerous fantasy with not a magical creature or other fantasy cliche in sight.
Look at the number of sub genres available, I know I'm not a fan of labelling books into sub genres but the vast range alone should tell you fantasy is not all Tolkien wannabes or stagnant.

 

[Dragonlady]

There are new sub categories like urban fantasy - aaranovitch et al. And this is perhaps one reason I read a lot of young adult fantasy, which seems to have a lot of more original stuff and female authors. The paper magician by charlie holmberg for example.

 

[tachyon]

It seems to me that in making the claim that fantasy is overly beholden to Tolkien's influence, you're only considering High Fantasy settings or Epic Fantasy. (Second world, elves, dwarves, and orcs, magic and wizards, big quests, big doorstop books, long series.)

I can see a strong Tolkein influence still overshadowing much of this part of the genre (filtered through D&D in many cases as noted above) but there's a lot more out there that I consider fantasy.

Urban fantasy, paranomal/fantasy romance, portal fantasy, alt-history with magic, magic school, high tech high magic, Lovecraftian cosmic horror, fairy stories, folklore retellings, portal fantasy, etc.

The genre is almost too broad to even comprehend.

I'm not someone who follows awards but I'm guessing a review of the relevant categories will show plenty of diversity.

Here are some examples of second world fantasy series that are highly original (in the order that I think of them):

NK Jemisin's - Broken Earth series
Max Gladstone - Craft series
Ken Liu - Dandelion Dynasty
Adrian Tchaikovsky - Shadows of the Apt
Ken Scholes - Psalms of Isaak
Robert Jackson Bennett - The Divine Cities series
Daniel Abraham - The Long Price Quartet
Kameron Hurley - The Mirror Empire series

Above are just stuff I've read, that I'd consider more-or-less equivalent to LOTR in scope and size, only second-world and without excessive SF crossover.

There's plenty more that's stand-alone, or crossover, or shorter, or one of the subgenres listed above. Fantasy is a sprawling, diverse, and highly original genre. There's a lot of dross out there but it's not hard to find the gold.

 

[Toby Frost]

Urban fantasy is interesting, because it feels like a clean break from Tolkien, and seems to draw its inspiration from horror stereotypes and some sort of paganism as much as The Lord of the Rings. I wonder what the equivalent for urban fantasy is, that popularised the genre and set out its "rules" (assuming that one exists). I can only think of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

 

[Boneman]

Adding to tachyon's list...

Anne McCaffrey
Frank Herbert
Guy Gavriel Kay
Patrick Rothfuss
Joe Abercrombie
Neil Gaiman
Jim Butcher

Tolkien's influence is huge, but so many writers have spread their wings and flown around the Misty Mountains....

 

[nixie]

You can also add,

Mark Lawrence
Liam Hearn
Scott R R Bakker
Brandon Sanderson
Steven Erikson
Ian C Esslemont
Stephen Donaldson
China Mieville
Robin Hobb.

The list is endless.

Funny how we perceive a genre we aren't widely read in. I use to think Sci-Fi was all space ships and aliens.

 

[Luiglin]

The same can be said for any genre, more so with thriller and romance - just think about Mills & Boon or Lee Childs, who is up to 25 Jack Reacher novels so far! In my opinion, this is not a bad thing thing, why reinvent the wheel and all that style of improvisation, syncopation, and usually a regular or forceful rhythm music.

Readers like to read stuff in the same style. They feel comfortable in doing so. I'm one of them. The amount of posts I see in various readers groups groups saying I like A.N.Other author / sub-genre, can anyone recommend similar works.

In my 40+ years of reading fantasy and sci-fi I can count on my one hand the number of times I've come across a work that is different to the standard works already mentioned.

1. Thomas Covenant books - a main character you just love to hate
2. The Saga of the Exiles and Galactic Milieu - in my opinion the best mix of sci-fi and fantasy I've ever read
3. Weaveworld - a true dark urban fantasy and, unusual in the genre a standalone
4. Discworld - books that have always made me chuckle, yes their were comedic fantasy before but Pratchett got the perfect balance between humour and well rounded characters
5. Drenai - just because Gemmell was never afraid to kill his characters off

If you are lucky or work hard enough to come up with a new unique take, then fantastic. If you don't, but still get out a good tale, then that is also fantastic.

To come back to the original point, evolution is a slow process. Maybe it's more the case of that we just can't see it in progress?

 

[Stephen Palmer]

It's pretty well known I think that Gygax stole most of the D&D magic system from Jack Vance.

 

[Guttersnipe]

Momo by Michael Ende and American Gods and The Ocean at the End of the Lane by Neil Gaiman break the mold imo.

 

[nixie]

I'm also going to add a couple of our very own authors here:
Bryan Wigmore; Goddess Project(@HareBrain )
Martin Owton ; Shadows of Faerie (@Tirellan )
Oh and I should also include @Jo Zebedee; Waters and the Wild.