Gender bias in terminology

[Mouse]

Erm, men playing women (and, later, women playing men) is completely normal (at least, in the UK) and has been since at least Shakespearean times. In pantomimes here, the pantomime Dame is always played by a man. And there's a character in panto which is always played by a woman, even though the character is male (not a panto fan, so can't actually remember which character that is. Dick Whittington or something like that?!)

 

[Phyrebrat]

I don't quite get the reference to Tilda Swinton. She plays a ninja in Constantine but is clearly a woman in other movies I know.

This is interesting because I find Tilda Swanton is often cast in roles that could be termed as non-binary. It introduces another side to this discussion — that of non-binary characters (more common in SFF, I’d argue but in Suspiria remake she is playing a professor who is somewhat androgynous* but definitely a woman).

As her role in Constantine shows she was a perfect cast for that ‘gender less’ role.

I suppose I’m focusing on it so much because I feel when societal change occurs it’s important to understand and implement it in a way that it becomes second nature (or a non-issue to successive generations), and therefore underlines the importance literature has in informing young minds.

*thinking about it, will androgyny become an offensive term — often we describe/read of characters who are termed thus.

 

[Montero]

@Mouse Yes, the young romantic hero is often played by a young woman - Dick Whittington in Puss in Boots, The Prince in Prince Charming. Breeches roles. Also happens in opera , have a female soprano playing a page boy for example.

The discussion of titles in nursing. The NHS has standardised on sister and matron for more senior nursing roles and the occupant of said role can be male or female. There was a project to come up with a generic name and in the end everyone gave up. It is still being discussed further, but so far it has held.

 

[Montero]

@Phyrebrat I've not seen Tilda Swanson. I am interested in what you were saying because I've just been reading a lot of Victoria Goddard and hanging out on the Hands of the Emperor Discord group. Due to the rounded way she writes characters and plot that include non binary people and also people who are not heavily sexual - as in have close loving relationships but aren't really that interested in sex - there is a high proportion of people with those interests hanging out there. It is a very nice polite friendly forum, though I gather that the moderators had to be pretty firm at times when it was being set up.

 

[Justin Swanton]

The discussion of titles in nursing. The NHS has standardised on sister and matron for more senior nursing roles and the occupant of said role can be male or female. There was a project to come up with a generic name and in the end everyone gave up. It is still being discussed further, but so far it has held.

Misandry!

 

[Justin Swanton]

Erm, men playing women (and, later, women playing men) is completely normal (at least, in the UK) and has been since at least Shakespearean times. In pantomimes here, the pantomime Dame is always played by a man. And there's a character in panto which is always played by a woman, even though the character is male (not a panto fan, so can't actually remember which character that is. Dick Whittington or something like that?!)

Sure, but why are pantomimes comedic? I would say partly because of an appeal to a deliberate absurdity of men playing women and women playing men. Absurdity implies departure from a norm, i.e. that men play men and women play women in "normal" theatre. QED.

 

[Swank]

I had a look at The Year of Living Dangerously. Sure, Linda Hunt can pull off a male role in that you wouldn't suspect she was a woman if you weren't told, but most women couldn't emulate her and don't try.

So, taking a step back, we have a limited number of exceptions to a general rule which do not invalidate the rule, nor create a need to change the Academy Award's distinction between actors and actresses. And now let me run for cover....

I don't think someone who has never seen the films being discussed should be so adamant. Orlando is clearly male in the first part of the film.

And this isn't so much about exceptions as application. You said women are actresses because they specialize in playing the roles of women. Fair enough: So when the sexes play each other, isn't that the same thing?

 

[Justin Swanton]

I don't think someone who has never seen the films being discussed should be so adamant. Orlando is clearly male in the first part of the film.

I'm just quoting the director.

And this isn't so much about exceptions as application. You said women are actresses because they specialize in playing the roles of women. Fair enough: So when the sexes play each other, isn't that the same thing?

My point is that, with some exceptions, women play women and men play men in movies and theatre. Since they are playing something different to each other (most of the time) it's quite reasonable to give them different names for it.

 

[Swank]

I'm just quoting the director.


My point is that, with some exceptions, women play women and men play men in movies and theatre. Since they are playing something different to each other (most of the time) it's quite reasonable to give them different names for it.

And my point is, when a man successfully plays that same role, ought they not to earn the same title of actress?

But I do think you misunderstood what the director was saying about what happens to Orlando mid-film.

 

[Justin Swanton]

And my point is, when a man successfully plays that same role, ought they not to earn the same title of actress?

But I do think you misunderstood what the director was saying about what happens to Orlando mid-film.

We probably need to agree to disagree at this point. Peace out!

 

[Swank]

We probably need to agree to disagree at this point. Peace out!

All I wanted was for you to explain how your principle works.

 

[Justin Swanton]

All I wanted was for you to explain how your principle works.

I already have, but I suppose I can copy-paste.

there are other professions that men and women do differently, acting being one. Men act as men and women as women (bar contemporary action dramas including SF and fantasy action dramas where women act as ninjas), so the distinguishing terms "actor" and "actress" adequately delineate that fact, without demeaning either men or women. Diversity is enriching and all that?

"Fireman" and "postman" comes from the fact that the vast majority of people who put out fires or deliver letters were - and still are - men. When those professions have a 50/50 mix of men and women then a term to depict both will naturally evolve, all by itself.

 

[Swank]

there are other professions that men and women do differently, acting being one. Men act as men and women as women (bar contemporary action dramas including SF and fantasy action dramas where women act as ninjas), so the distinguishing terms "actor" and "actress" adequately delineate that fact, without demeaning either men or women.

So when professionals act as the opposite sex convincingly, do they earn the title respective to the role they are playing? Or do they remain titled by their biology/gender?

 

[Justin Swanton]

So when professionals act as the opposite sex convincingly, do they earn the title respective to the role they are playing? Or do they remain titled by their biology/gender?

By their biology hence gender since that is what they generally play. Men play men better than women do and women play women better than men do - unless you're doing some sort of a farce (again with exceptions). "Actress" conjures up everything feminine about human nature which is what a movie/play puts on display, and "actor" conjures up everything male. The terms create expectations that are generally not subverted by the performance. Having said that I don't push it too far. Men and women have much more in common than what distinguishes them: intelligence, free will, talent and the diverse manifestations of good and evil. All I stick at is that men and women are not interchangeable and cannot interchangeably portray each other (again...sigh...with occasional exceptions).

 

[Cthulhu.Science]

Erm, men playing women (and, later, women playing men) is completely normal (at least, in the UK) and has been since at least Shakespearean times. In pantomimes here, the pantomime Dame is always played by a man. And there's a character in panto which is always played by a woman, even though the character is male (not a panto fan, so can't actually remember which character that is. Dick Whittington or something like that?!)

Men playing women goes back at least to the Greeks.
If we are going full Western Tradition -- Until very recently, women were barred from the stage.
Men were REQUIRED to dress as women during public performances.

Women in Theatre: A Historical Look

This Women's History Month, learn about the history of women in theatre. March is Women's History Month! This is the perfect month to put a spotlight on the history of women in the theatre, because it is a very interesting history...

nctheatre.com

 

[Swank]

Men playing women goes back at least to the Greeks.
If we are going full Western Tradition -- Until very recently, women were barred from the stage.
Men were REQUIRED to dress as women during public performances.

Women in Theatre: A Historical Look

This Women's History Month, learn about the history of women in theatre. March is Women's History Month! This is the perfect month to put a spotlight on the history of women in the theatre, because it is a very interesting history...

nctheatre.com

I'm afraid the ends justify the explanation, in this case.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Anyway, this discussion has long gone off course. While it's great to consider the original topic, this thread isn't doing that and effectively turning into a general discussion of LGBTQ+ and gender, so time to close it folks before it explodes.