Meeting at an inn

@jjcomet I know it can be hard to receive feedback. At first to me it felt like getting stabbed in the guts. But don’t worry, over time it should get easier, your writing will get better, and you will learn to recognize the issues in your own writing and get them fixed before submitting for feedback.

Just don’t take anything personal, everyone giving their thoughts here wants you to be a better writer, and is giving you constructive feedback, not trying to tear you down. I know you know that, sometimes we just have to remind ourselves of that fact.

Good work and keep at it!
 
Ok, I'm bruised, beaten and broke.
Have to take a break for a while, to let my head stop spinning.
I hope you're feeling a little better now. It is always hard to open one's writing up to critical review, so congratulate yourself on having both the guts to do it and the humility to accept opinions on your work.

Some thoughts on the specific issues you've raised, in the hope they help.

For Sule -
Yea, thought the meal was a bit too much. Though, as they say - a picture is worth a thousand words. And it is referring to the fine food served at the inn. Otherwise simply stating they were eating a meal, could be interpreted as basically eating iron rations.
I'm a great believer in including food! It's part of every culture and its use can give insights into your world so forms an unobtrusive way to slip in world-building -- a lunch of figs and oranges immediately conjures up a different milieu from bread and dripping. So don't be afraid of writing food into the story, but I'd suggest that you think exactly what "fine food" means in this time and place and adjust the menu accordingly, and then bring it in more subtly ie not just literally paraded in, and through the characters eg "Vaust immediately fell upon the venison pasty" or "Garym disliked spiced food ordinarily, but the cinnamon-scented curd tart was wonderful and he ate it all"

The 3 different references to Garym. Just trying to give various references than continually saying Garym or he all the time.
In the past the French tended to use periphrasis in description, so you're in good company! However, it reads as a little arch to Anglo-Saxon ears. Where there are only the two of them then "he" is fine, rather than using the name. It's more difficult with three or more characters, and sometimes rearranging lines helps so that one character keeps the dialogue for longer allowing the "he" to continue uninterrupted.

The change in locations is to (1) show the forgetfulness of a character - Vaust.
Then make this clear, perhaps, if it's relevant to the plot-- eg "Garym smiled to himself. As ever, Vaust had forgotten what she was doing" -- but perhaps when it's slightly more interesting for the scene, as by itself it doesn't really add enough here.

Pet peeve's - Perfunctory descriptions:
True, I do that. It is how I am. For I have a limited sense on how to describe someone I am imagining
I'm also bad at thinking what people look like, so I tend not to give descriptions much, so if you don't want to do it, don't. For me, part of the problem in your descriptions is that they sit flat on the page as if just dumped there. I've read successful thrillers that do this -- each new character accompanied by a paragraph -- but they tend to have more interesting detail. And just as with the food, ground description in the characters and their reactions/ideas if possible, or with action eg instead of "[she's] wearing a short, violet and gray dress" have something like "her short dress exposing her knees as she walked, to the disgust of an elderly goblin" or "wearing violet again since Garym had once said it suited her".

You mentioned a close third person POV - what is that?
Instead of being a film camera standing back and watching the whole scene, be eg Garym, and watch everything through his eyes, describing what he sees, what he thinks etc

As far as the hat - it is a Stetton type of hat. And since Stetton is a trademark, did not know if I could say it. I have three horses and do wear one. And are there really 'cowboys' in the fantasy realms? So how else was I going to describe the hat without everyone thinking a pointed wizards hat?
Stetson is indeed trademarked, but that doesn't prevent anyone talking about it or mentioning it in a novel as long as you avoid all risk of defaming the company eg by linking the hat to nefarious goings-on! However, using the name of a company which is so closely tied to the American west in the C19th, in a fantasy novel that isn't set in that time and place, would certainly pull me out of a story so I think you're right to avoid the name. Something like "a slouch hat" would work, but why would this character be wearing such a hat? Why not a hat that is perhaps more appropriate to the time and setting?

Your asking to leave some descriptions out, for the reader fill in something suitable on their own. And yet Sule mentions perfunctory descriptions. Which road to take . . . . ?
From my reading of Sule's comment the "perfunctory" isn't that there's too little, but that the descriptions you give are too uninformative because they're flat police-speak rather than based on what gives detail about the characters -- both the character being described and the POV character effectively doing the describing.

Some kind of hook to getting interested. Hard to do with only a snippet from the book.
Um, well, no. Obviously the opening paragraph/page is where a hook is vital, to attract new readers, but thereafter you have to keep the reader hooked -- every new scene has to make the reader want to read on, so every new scene needs a hook of some kind of its own. The kind of hook may change, because there are different ways of keeping the reader interested, but there must still be something.

Here for instance, I'd have started the chapter with the three of them sitting at a table, Vaust still picking at the meat or guzzling her wine, and Astrin telling them precisely what he wants them to do, which to my mind would be immediately more gripping, hooking the reader into reading further. Clearly, I don't know where you're going next, but in truth is there anything in this part of the scene as written which is absolutely vital to the plot or our understanding of the characters which can't somehow be brought in later or in a different way?

I like the simple pleasantries. Just because current society is getting to the point where everyone will soon live in hover-chairs and their meals (and everything else) delivered to them.
You're absolutely right. Pleasantries of this kind are the oil that helps to avoid friction between people in real life, and we need them, more of them. But...

But what is wrong with reading about two people being introduced?
The cheap answer is -- it's boring. Or, at the very least, it risks being boring unless handled very deftly. Lit fic can get away with it -- perhaps because lit fic readers expect to be bored!! :p -- but we genre writers don't have that luxury. Books aren't real life, so we don't add in all the ums and ahs and endless repetitions that form real conversations, and in the same way we need to edit our writing to include only the things that take the story forward or help with characterisation -- in some cases that can mean a long welcome, but for the most part it's best to keep moving.

And yet, the various books I have read over the years, all read differently. So where is the common thread that says their right - except that they have been published.
Different people like different things! There is no one-size-fits-all in books as in anything else, which is why all we can do here is give advice based upon what we have learned and what we understand/believe might attract the attention of agents, publishers and readers. If on reflection you prefer to write how you want to write, then just ignore us, and certainly if you were planning on SPing, there's no need to worry about what anyone else thinks. Ultimately, you have to enjoy your own work, and if trying to change your style makes you unhappy, then don't.

Meanwhile, stop beating yourself up about "lack of writing knowledge" -- we're all still learning as we go, it's just that we're a little higher up the writing mountain than you are at present, and we're offering a few guide ropes as you embark on the steeper ridges!
 
Books aren't real life, so we don't add in all the ums and ahs and endless repetitions that form real conversations, and in the same way we need to edit our writing to include only the things that take the story forward or help with characterisation -- in some cases that can mean a long welcome, but for the most part it's best to keep moving.

Nor are plays, TV, or films.

I was watching a film a while back. There was something really 'off' about it. Something that didn't work.

Towards then end of the film I realised what it was. The film was based on a play and the dialogue in the film script must have stayed true to the dialogue in the play. It hadn't been rewritten for the screen. (There was no excuse for this ; it was a contemporary piece not a classic.) Just as writers have to adapt normal speech patterns for books (taking out "all the ums and ahs and endless repetitions" or, like David Mamet, carefully moulding them. What works as book dialogue doesn't necessarily work as stage dialogue which, in turn, doesn't necessarily work as screen dialogue.
 
@jjcomet I know it can be hard to receive feedback. At first to me it felt like getting stabbed in the guts. But don’t worry, over time it should get easier, your writing will get better, and you will learn to recognize the issues in your own writing and get them fixed before submitting for feedback.

Just don’t take anything personal, everyone giving their thoughts here wants you to be a better writer, and is giving you constructive feedback, not trying to tear you down. I know you know that, sometimes we just have to remind ourselves of that fact.

Good work and keep at it!

I totally agree with these comments.
 
Ok, I'm bruised, beaten and broke.
Have to take a break for a while, to let my head stop spinning. Then proceed to assimilate the remaining reviews and see how the rest of you flay my work. It is greatly appreciated and requested, just a lot to go over.
Later.

Yeah, crits should come with a mental health advisory :giggle:.
I think we are used to polite society where people don't criticise directly. So unfamiliar are we with a barage of negatives that it can feel like an attack and induce a 'fight or flight'. You can end up defending or even escalating.
In my recent 300 word crit where I put up a story that I really liked but which only got two votes, I chose 'flight' and intentionally did not get into 'yeah but'. - I had learned what people didn't like and that was all I wanted.
I was surprised and didn't necessarily agree with the main grouse but at least I had an honest 'readers perspective' to turn over in my hands and consider.
Out of curiosity how do you feel about rewriting the piece, as an exercise, incorporating some of the advice to see how (if) it works?
We have all been there, it's kind of a rite of passage :cool:
 
I just want to say that I wasn't using "soporific" with regards to your writing; I was trying to make the point that too many sentences that start in the same way tend to have a lulling effect on the reader. I apologize for my flippant use of it.
 
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The response by @The Judge is the most detailed description I've read critique or not. TBH I didn't read the original piece. I was just mesmerized by the writeup and the knowledge. Thank you for that. I have to bookmark this even thought it is totally not my field of interest. (Which goes to show that sincere writing and deep knowledge will suck anyone in)

why a tavern scene
Dangit. I just wrote a Tavern (or watering hole) scene in my SciFi story and was mighty proud of it (I have a hard time writing crowds, but getting better) and your comment made me think - why are my guys in (the equivalent) of a Tavern, especially if they have some private business. I finally decided that the tavern scene adds important atmosphere and back story about the state of the world, _and_ the noisy bustle provides a kind of anonymity, _and_ they are not discussing anything anyone knows is important and should be kept secret. Not that anyone asked me to justify this scene no one has seen.

everyone carried a byknife
WOW! That led me down a rabbit hole of medieval eating implements. (Glossary of sword scabbard terms)

"a knife and a pricker together are known as byknives"

Yes, I'm immature enough to snicker at that. So regular folk didn't have forks, they had prickers, which kind of did the same thing while being suitably more dangerous.
 
Thank you for the encomium!

Dangit. I just wrote a Tavern (or watering hole) scene in my SciFi story and was mighty proud of it (I have a hard time writing crowds, but getting better) and your comment made me think - why are my guys in (the equivalent) of a Tavern, especially if they have some private business.
Exactly the kind of questioning I was hoping to provoke! I'm not against tavern scenes per se, but I think it's best if there is internal justification for them to avoid seeming a cliche, especially in fantasies. (Full confession and disclosure -- I felt somewhat hypocritical raising it as an issue, since my last WiP opens in, you've guessed it, a tavern. However, my MC is a drunk who is forcibly woken after a 3 day bender, I needed him to be indoors and somewhere public so there are witnesses, and somewhere very unlikely for an important personage to attend, so a squalid tavern was the obvious choice.)
 
To be fair, in older times, a tavern/inn/coachhouse would likely be the focal point of any settlement (especially smaller ones). If you have a pre-arranged meeting with someone with whom you are not familiar, it would probably be the place to do so as it would be easy to locate and no hassle if either party were late (helpful in a time without watches). I also think that if you are meeting someone for the first time and you're not sure how things will go, doing it in a public place is a safer option, and gives you an opportunity to slip away if things don't feel right.

If this is a first time meeting , and they aren't planning anything illegal or which requires secrecy, then a quiet conversation in the corner of a busy tavern is probably best. asking the owner to give you the use of a private room is only likely to arouse suspicion and interest in others.

As I mentioned earlier as well, meeting in tavern/ins etc does seem a staple of fantasy, and if you are writing for a fantasy audience they would likely happily accept and not question such an arrangement. As mentioned above, a place were people can eat drink and be merry can be a good way of indicating how happy and how prosperous the area may be.

As The Judge quite rightly mentions, there is nothing wrong - and some benefits to - trying something different and less cliched, but I also think there are benefits and reasons why tried and tested formulas can work just as well.
 
I had just returned, after letting myself calm down a little. During my hiatus, I had decided to print out the replies (help give me a better perspective) to highlight the corrections. While doing that, I was going over the additional comments and noticed:
Out of curiosity how do you feel about rewriting the piece, as an exercise, incorporating some of the advice to see how (if) it works?
Thanks for the interest.
Yes, this will help me figure out where my writing lacks. Guess what really shook me, not necessarily the reviews, is I had spent roughly 3 years of - what I though was - multiple editing's. Started the story from pieces over 10 years ago.
And to go back over my 11 chapters again - not to say I will not - will really make me feel behind the 8-ball.

Again, thanks.
 
I apologize for my flippant use of it.
Don't be. This is why I am here - aside from toughening up my ego. To get that different set of eye's I need, to tell me what does and does not work.
Thanks.
 
I had stepped away for a bit. Here in eastern Iowa the temps are above freezing - though there is around a 20mph wind which makes things cold - and there is no snow on the ground. So was out and took advantage of fickle Mother Nature. Let the horse's eat some green grass out in the yard, as apposed to their pasture which is all chewed down to nothing. While doing that was thinking (my jumbled way of thinking) about the various replies. Such as this one -

The response by @The Judge is the most detailed description I've read critique or not.
I don't know if I should feel flattered or feel like a fool? Or how about a flattered fool? I can deal with that.

Here is a response a friend said to me when I told him about these various reviews -
'Think of your writing as a blade of mythic potential, tempered in the flames of critique.'
Now that's writing - and deep man.

And for The Judge: You have given me much to assimilate, so my responses may take a bit. And thanks for your further answers to some of my responses. Here is one reply which you have asked about - Why a tavern scene? I realize it is getting to be as bad a cliché as a cop in a donut shop. However, when I was first writing (mostly for myself at the time) I simply came up with the Brass Shield Inn as a place for this, and a previous, meeting. Then over the chapters it has become an established location. Plus, while playing D&D, it was a tried and true way for characters to meet, so I was works off that familiarity.
You also mentioned later :
but I'm on a one-woman crusade to nudge writers into bringing some elements of reality to fantasy!
I totally see that, and have no problem trying. I only thought I would go too far into the reality effort and make it seem I am just padding my work. I have several medieval - Life in a castle - type books. At one point in my story, further along in perhaps book 3 ?, I went into the process of fiefdom from the vassals to the ruling Lord of the land. Don't know if it works (just an idea I had and put it down into the story) but reality into fantasy I do like.
And your one-woman crusade - That sounds like my character Vaust, and her own (and the reason for this story) crusade. Again, something that happened while playing D&D (all those years ago) and has brought me to this point.

Thanks!
 
If Chapter 1 would have been presented, maybe I could have followed who is who. I understand Vaust is the elf, but I got lost at who the other characters are. I'm guessing it's Vaust and Garym (I actually put Astrin there before replacing with Garym; shows the problems I had following the story) who are under the overhang. It seems Vaust and Garym are the two main characters, and Astrin is being introduced. If there is another elf in addition to Vaust, I missed it.

This, I had to push myself to read through. It didn't seem like something easily to read.

It definitely seemed present tense.

Garym Alandras politely listens as Vaust talks on about the inn.
Maybe somebody already mentioned it and I missed it, but right here we could have the actual conversation.

Elf. Is this a Lord of the Rings Elf? (Hats off to Orlando Bloom). Is this like Elder Scrolls, with high and wooden and dark? Something else? Perhaps in the first two chapters it's explained about the elves.

For me, it would be better to see the first chapter, to know about the location and about the characters
 
Guess what really shook me, not necessarily the reviews, is I had spent roughly 3 years of - what I though was - multiple editing's. Started the story from pieces over 10 years ago.
And to go back over my 11 chapters again - not to say I will not - will really make me feel behind the 8-ball.
Perhaps it might help to complete the story and then look at editing. I feel it is often better to complete an imperfect draft than to perfect an incomplete draft.

Getting to the end can provide a sense of relief and provide some perspective when addressing other people's opinions.
 
Bravo on putting your work out for critique! Bravo on sticking with your story!

After seeing some of the discussion here I would suggest looking at The Toolbox -- The Important Bits These pointers helped me a lot.

And yet, the various books I have read over the years, all read differently. So where is the common thread that says their right - except that they have been published. I previously mentioned the Elric series, (enjoyed them very much). However, to me, Michael Moorcock continually uses run-on sentences.
Sorry, getting brain-fried. Better stop now before I really say something wrong.
Established writers can get away with a lot of mediocrity that new writers can not. This is completely understandable sociologically. It's just how it is.

When I write I try to keep a lot of things in my head and I'm seeing that some guidelines I am starting to internalize.

The main things I try and keep in mind is as follows
  1. The story must keep moving: advance plot, character or world building with every paragraph
  2. The written word can take you inside the head of a character as no other medium can. Do it.
  3. You can not force a reader to feel something.
In terms of process I am a big believer in rewriting. For me the first draft is often full of exposition but gets the story down. The second draft is when I go in and cut away exposition (1, 3), improve interiority and voice (2,3).
 
Perhaps it might help to complete the story and then look at editing.
Yep, that is where I am at. Why I located Chronicles and have submitted myself to the constructive reviews.
Thanks.


Referring to the beginning where Garym is listening to Vaust :
Maybe somebody already mentioned it and I missed it, but right here we could have the actual conversation.
True. I have (through my editing's) changed various locations where I would just say there is a conversation and then go back and write out the dialog. Missed this conversation, and can expand on it to deal with the reason Garym is actually there.
Sorry for your confusion, PadreTX about my submission. Guess I chose a poor first example. I will (once going through the replies) readjust this example and see how it fares. May be a while.
 
As The Judge quite rightly mentions, there is nothing wrong - and some benefits to - trying something different and less cliched, but I also think there are benefits and reasons why tried and tested formulas can work just as well.
I quite agree (and am sorry) I read your reply after I replied back to The Judge, and kind of said what you were talking about.
From that reply:
Why a tavern scene? I realize it is getting to be as bad a cliché as a cop in a donut shop. However, when I was first writing (mostly for myself at the time) I simply came up with the Brass Shield Inn as a place for this, and a previous, meeting. Then over the chapters it has become an established location. Plus, while playing D&D, it was a tried and true way for characters to meet, so I was works off that familiarity.
Sounds like what you are implying. But the point is taken in both cases.
 
The main things I try and keep in mind is as follows
  1. The story must keep moving: advance plot, character or world building with every paragraph
  2. The written word can take you inside the head of a character as no other medium can. Do it.
  3. You can not force a reader to feel something.
Now that is something I can use. Just have to take some time and understand what (all) has been mentioned to me.
Glad I found Chronicles.
 
I quite agree (and am sorry) I read your reply after I replied back to The Judge, and kind of said what you were talking about.
From that reply:
Why a tavern scene? I realize it is getting to be as bad a cliché as a cop in a donut shop. However, when I was first writing (mostly for myself at the time) I simply came up with the Brass Shield Inn as a place for this, and a previous, meeting. Then over the chapters it has become an established location. Plus, while playing D&D, it was a tried and true way for characters to meet, so I was works off that familiarity.
Sounds like what you are implying. But the point is taken in both cases.


No need to apologise. :)

Quite often with critiques, it's not a case of doing anything right or wrong, it's just being given other options to consider. It's your story and it's your choice how it goes, but it's can be useful to have others opinions, especially when those opinions will be from published authors and avid readers of sci-fi and fantasy.

Something to be considered (that I'm sure has been brought up on other threads) is that when you put up a piece of writing for critique it's going under the microscope to be studied and considered; something that the average reader won't do.

As has been mentioned, get it finished before you try to get it polished, and see how it goes. You can always write a sequel, or even write the same book all over again!
 
Banal? - Again Ouch!

Hi again jj - you're feeling beaten up now in this thread, but, trust me, it's the good kind of beaten up where instead of punches they're throwing writing skills right in your face. The impacts might hurt a little right now but if you can integrate them into your editing practice you'll emerge as a veritable Mike Tyson able to fend off your critics with a crafty little adjective here (Pow!) and a wonderful use of imagery there (Bam!).

When I say the conversation is Banal that's not a criticism of you, it just means the dialogue gives us no real information. The conversation isn't about anything. There's no subtext to it.

Some kind of hook to getting interested. Hard to do with only a snippet from the book.
I had read, in another critique post I reviewed, that someone mentioned being tired of reading fight scenes. So I chose this non-combative sample of my work (for punishment).

A hook doesn't have to be a fight scene. It's something interesting that captures the reader's attention and draws them in: a mystery, a puzzle, something incongruent, something dramatic, something atmospheric, a revelation. Whatever it is, your reader should want to continue reading to see how the central problem is resolved.

I like the simple pleasantries. Just because current society is getting to the point where everyone will soon live in hover-chairs and their meals (and everything else) delivered to them. Or where they do not have to have their hands on the steering wheel in cars, or everything is emog's. Sorry - getting side tracked. But what is wrong with reading about two people being introduced?

There's nothing wrong reading about two people being introduced. A well written introduction could be compelling or exciting or fascinating, so long as the author writes it in a way that holds our interest.

Unless the introduction adds something to the story, a writer would usually leave it out or summarise it with one or two sentences like "Jeff and Dave greeted each other warmly," so that we can get to the interesting stuff.

Perhaps it might help to complete the story and then look at editing. I feel it is often better to complete an imperfect draft than to perfect an incomplete draft.

^This^

Writing a book is a lot like sculpting. The first draft you're blocking out the forms and getting the overall structure. Subsequent drafts are all about chipping away at the rough block of stone, refining the shapes and putting all the fine, perfectly crafted details in.
 

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