Religious systems in Sci-Fi

[Brian G Turner]

I think we're moving beyond discussing "Religious systems in SF" and moving far too close to discussing religion and religious belief.

 

[Justin Swanton]

I think we're moving beyond discussing "Religious systems in SF" and moving far too close to discussing religion and religious belief.

OK, though I suppose it's a bit like balancing a piece of meat on a dog's nose. The meat tends not stay on the nose....

But fine, we henceforth stick strictly to quoting religion as used in SF and how it is used there.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Does this include discussing characters using religion?

Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen is a paratime story by H. Beam Piper. Calvin Morrison is a policeman in Philadelphia I think, who gets accidentally caught in a paratime transport and randomly dropped off in an alternate North America.

His father was a fire and brimstone preacher who apparently rubbed Calvin the wrong way and thus decided he was an agnostic. But this alternate reality has competing primitive religions so Kalvan pretends to go along to get along. One competing religion has gunpowder as a miracle that can only be made by the godly priesthood.

Kalvan proceeds to tell everyone how to make gunpowder saving the kingdom of the beautiful princess from the evil priesthood.

So this story presents a rather cynical view of religion where it must be accepted to get along with the brainwashed faithful.

 

[Rufus Coppertop]

I think we're moving beyond discussing "Religious systems in SF" and moving far too close to discussing religion and religious belief.

I'm glad you mentioned that as I find religion interesting and could easily stray beyond the purpose of the forum.

 

[The Big Peat]

Rufus Coppertop said most of everything I was thinking of saying, so I'd just add that Lina Rather's Sisters of the Vast Black is a very good novella that blends the two. I can't think of a recent book that does it better.

 

[Flaviosky]

So this story presents a rather cynical view of religion where it must be accepted to get along with the brainwashed faithful.

Well, similar to what I saying at first where I frequently saw religion in sci-fi as cult-like organizations. Although the final setting for the example seems to be far from sci-fi

 

[Swank]

Either religion is that weird thing those other people do, or it is that personal thing that you and your brethren feel. The lens of SF means that the presentation of the former is going to threatening or anthropological, while the latter is philosophical or miraculous, and miracles happen in a different genre altogether.

It is hard to see how religion in SF isn't either going to be alienated or thematic, but little else.

 

[Parson]

Either religion is that weird thing those other people do, or it is that personal thing that you and your brethren feel. The lens of SF means that the presentation of the former is going to threatening or anthropological, while the latter is philosophical or miraculous, and miracles happen in a different genre altogether.

It is hard to see how religion in SF isn't either going to be alienated or thematic, but little else.

Not sure I buy this. I can think of books like several of David Weber's in his Honor Harrington series, where religion is a sidelight that some people ascribe to with all their heart, some people think it's foolishness, and Honor herself* does not believe but she supports some forms of it.

*Most of the main characters do not believe.

 

[Swank]

Not sure I buy this. I can think of books like several of David Weber's in his Honor Harrington series, where religion is a sidelight that some people ascribe to with all their heart, some people think it's foolishness, and Honor herself* does not believe but she supports some forms of it.

*Most of the main characters do not believe.

How is that different than what I mentioned? I wasn't being pejorative with "weird". If religion isn't part of the plot than neither applies, and religion just becomes a detail like hair color. But if it plays a role it is either outside looking in or personal philosophy.

 

[Parson]

I did see "weird" as pejorative. But to your point, in at least a couple of the books in the Honor Harrington series it is a minor, and in one case a major, part of the plot. Even in the books where it's mentioned seldom, I always saw it as significant in importance. And the point is that the main character, Honor Harrington is not a believer but she participates because she sees it as culturally important.

In his Safehold series religion is always a very major part of the plot and almost all of the major characters see it's importance in their lives every day. But "Merlin" the main character is not, or at least mostly not, a believer, and still honors what s/he sees as the faith of the people of Safehold.

 

[Swank]

I did see "weird" as pejorative. But to your point, in at least a couple of the books in the Honor Harrington series it is a minor, and in one case a major, part of the plot. Even in the books where it's mentioned seldom, I always saw it as significant in importance. And the point is that the main character, Honor Harrington is not a believer but she participates because she sees it as culturally important.

In his Safehold series religion is always a very major part of the plot and almost all of the major characters see it's importance in their lives every day. But "Merlin" the main character is not, or at least mostly not, a believer, and still honors what s/he sees as the faith of the people of Safehold.

I'm sorry to have offended you. Would 'odd' have been acceptable?

We may be speaking past each other. You appear to be talking about depicitions of faith, while I was referring to the OP about distinct and novel "religious systems". That strikes me as falling into anthropology or thematic content. Characters happening to be a religion that doesnt move the plot because of its novelty would fall outside what I was speaking od, or the OP.

 

[Parson]

I was not offended by the use of the "pejorative." I understood that to be only a kind of negative.

In the distinct and novel "religious systems" the Safehold series would be precisely that. The religion in question was developed so that colonists would not develop past a certain level of technology.

 

[Swank]

I was not offended by the use of the "pejorative." I understood that to be only a kind of negative.

In the distinct and novel "religious systems" the Safehold series would be precisely that. The religion in question was developed so that colonists would not develop past a certain level of technology.

I guess I would have put Safehold in the anthropology category because it is about the societal effects of a created religion.

 

[Parson]

I guess I would have put Safehold in the anthropology category because it is about the societal effects of a created religion.

A religion without societal effects would sound to be something which would be impossible. I can think of nothing that's even passingly important that does not have some societal effects. Even Pet Rocks and Hula Hoops made and to some extent can still make societal ripples.

 

[Swank]

A religion without societal effects would sound to be something which would be impossible. I can think of nothing that's even passingly important that does not have some societal effects. Even Pet Rocks and Hula Hoops made and to some extent can still make societal ripples.

Yes. But that's all the religion aspect of the story is involved in - its secular effect. The reader is being treated to a thought experiment about how religion with origins in human created mass manipulation effects a population, rather than about something divine in origin with a spiritual effect that makes people better.

I'm not making a value judgement, just saying that the story is a scientific analysis of an artifice. That's anthropology, to me. Perfectly good reason to write a story.

 

[Parson]

Yes. But that's all the religion aspect of the story is involved in - its secular effect. The reader is being treated to a thought experiment about how religion with origins in human created mass manipulation effects a population, rather than about something divine in origin with a spiritual effect that makes people better.

Okay, now that does put a bit of a different light on this discussion. You are looking at religion as something more on the miracle side of religion. You do get some examples of the spiritual insights informing decisions which are made. Even in the Safehold series, you could say that Maikel Staynair the head of the church in Charis is following what he understands is God's revelation about what Mother Church should be, rather than merely following an expedient course. But these kinds of story lines in SF are vanishingly rare in my experience. Which I think points to a deficiency in SF.

 

[Swank]

Okay, now that does put a bit of a different light on this discussion. You are looking at religion as something more on the miracle side of religion. You do get some examples of the spiritual insights informing decisions which are made. Even in the Safehold series, you could say that Maikel Staynair the head of the church in Charis is following what he understands is God's revelation about what Mother Church should be, rather than merely following an expedient course. But these kinds of story lines in SF are vanishingly rare in my experience. Which I think points to a deficiency in SF. Christian belief played a large role in a lot of humanitarian progress in the world. For example, it played a large role, particularly in England, in the abolishment of the slave trade.

SF references religion fairly often, but usually from the outside-looking-in perspective of "what does this social institution mean for the plot?" All the Dune books and all the Ship books by Herbert focused intently on this aspect of religion, but I think that anthropological view is really the most SF can manage because SF is not going to try to prove a belief system. It's just kind of outside the remit of SF, and becomes a fantasy proposition because belief systems necessarily involve a non-scientific judgement about the nature of reality, or an embrace of "magic". And I've seen that in books by Banks, Stephenson, Gibson and many others.

The other aspect I mentioned is the viewpoint of the believer and the effect of faith on their internal motivation. This is more often depicted as above, but Herbert did it with the Ship books and it certainly must happen often enough other places.

But I don't see how SF is able to do a third aspect as plot. It can certainly be constructed around a vaguely Christian theme. But most societies have a "good" value set not far from what we think of as good Christian morals.

 

[THX1138]

I would just 'imply' a character's religion through simple actions or jesters and leave the rest up to the reader.