What is 'literature' and what SF qualifies?

At any rate, if I were to draw a line between 'mere stories' and 'literature', the line would be weight, for want of a better word. Some books' offerings weigh more heavily on your mind and leave more of an imprint. I think this is fairly similar to other definitions offered by others in the thread too, and most of the definitions out there in some way or the other.
There may be two different things getting mixed up in some of the comments.

In message #125 above, I didn't state, but should have stated, that I envisage a spectrum. At one end belongs the story that may be enjoyed as pure entertainment providing pleasure, but depending on a very casual reading. This kind of story has its place. At the other end of the spectrum is the story that may require a great deal of sustained attention, may offer rewards to readers who are better-informed about history, art, etc. than readers who are not. This kind of story also has its place. A reader who can read and enjoy this kind of story at all is likely to value it highly. He or she may try to interest others in it, urge them to acquire knowledge and develop reading skills that could enable them to read it because the rewards are known to be great.

I think some of this kind of encouragement may be counterproductive because it is liable to evoke false charges of snobbery or whatever. On the other hand, this kind of encouragement may be just what some less well-read person needs. In my own case, I had at least two English professors who knew a lot I didn't, who enjoyed a lot that I hadn't enjoyed, and I wanted to become more like them. One of them was quite a popular teacher and one of them was, so far as I'm aware, not popular. But I was on a sort of quest, still am, and I revere both of them as I remember them. I would have hated it if they had seemed to be ashamed or apologetic because they were enormously better read than I and had academic credentials I never attained. They were inspirations to me. They loved reading. They were sort of fathers and brothers and friends and mentors to me. If you have been to college and have never had teachers like these, that's a pity. But then in any time and place they are probably exceptional -- especially now when politics is so horribly messed up with literary study.

OK, so there is a spectrum of fiction writing, or a spectrum of possible reading. Some works of fiction may belong not at one or the other end of the spectrum but somewhere in between, and this model not being an infallible touchstone, good readers may differ somewhat in where they would place a given story on the spectrum. I don't suppose that all of the stories of any legitimate genre always cluster at one end or the other. For example, Henry James's The Turn of the Screw is a ghost story and so is some ghost story from Weird Tales. The James story belongs pretty far towards the literature end of the spectrum while the pulp yarn probably belongs towards the subliterary end. (But if I wanted a story to read aloud to some youngsters on Hallowe'en, that WT yarn might be a good choice if it wasn't simply bad.)

The other thing that's involved in the current discussion of imaginative writing is the matter of goodness and badness. I don't think that literary goodness and badness are simply matters of taste/subjectivity. Meaning no offense, but it seems to me that some of you guys are very quick to say something is just a matter of subjective preference.

But badness and goodness in reading can be more objective than that. A bad piece of writing may start as a bad idea and/or be badly written. The most uncontroversial criterion of badness will be that a piece of writing is bad when the author doesn't know how to write. He doesn't know, or worse doesn't care, what words mean; for example, he says decimate when he means utterly destroy. He has no sense of how words and phrases sound together. He persistently falls into unintended bathos. He relies on crude and offensive ethnic stereotypes to provide the power to make the engine of his writing turn over, relying in readers to despise what he despises. He may be a lackey of those in power; if they are plastering the streets with billboards of square-jawed heroes who pose next to enormous tractors, he will write about heroes with tractors. He relies on the reader to indulge in fatuous, consolatory daydreams that his writing hardly has the power even to evoke. He will never use ten words when 120 words are possible. His work constantly suggests inattention to his job, ignorance of his subject, and neglect of, or even contempt for, his readers.

And he may be writing for pulp magazines or for prestige book publishers. His work is bad. It is bad in itself, and to develop a taste for it is for one's taste to be stunted or to become corrupted. Good criticism will expose the badness of this work, though without cruelty towards the author and his fans. And that might offend the author and his possibly influential friends and the custodians of fashion. But that's what good criticism of bad work will do with bad books, unless it simply ignores them

Good criticism may also take note of good but unfashionable writing and try to mold people's taste so that they will receive it and enjoy it if possible.

The spectrum I have attempted to describe assumes that the story to be discussed seems to be reasonably good. "The Speckled Band" is towards the subliterary end, but is good for what it is. A lot of science fiction probably belongs towards that end, just as probably a lot of more realistic fiction does. If a story is truly bad as just described, it's hardly worthwhile trying to assess its place on the spectrum. Why would you even finish reading it?

I'm guided much by the comments of people whose judgment I have confidence, happily too much to have read things that seem to aspire to literature but are bad. I've read a fair amount of bad subliterature because I read fanzines, old magazines, etc. and because sometimes I just felt the itch to read a new genre story that I persisted with pretty lousy writing. As for bad writing with literary aspirations, benefit of the oft-derided "canon" is that books that seem to be grossly failed efforts at literature haven't generally been regarded as canonical. Quite a bit of drama survives from the Elizabethan-Jacobean period that just about nobody except literary historians ever reads; I suppose that some of this is just bad. But most of us, self included, never hear about it.
 
In message #125 above, I didn't state, but should have stated, that I envisage a spectrum. At one end belongs the story that may be enjoyed as pure entertainment providing pleasure, but depending on a very casual reading. This kind of story has its place. At the other end of the spectrum is the story that may require a great deal of sustained attention, may offer rewards to readers who are better-informed about history, art, etc. than readers who are not. This kind of story also has its place. A reader who can read and enjoy this kind of story at all is likely to value it highly. He or she may try to interest others in it, urge them to acquire knowledge and develop reading skills that could enable them to read it because the rewards are known to be great.
This is it for me.

We can debate where any one story fits on the spectrum and that comes down to elements intrinsic to the story such as prose and story-telling and theme, among other criteria insofar as they can be evaluated, as well as taste as taste is developed through life experience (which includes ideology, religious bent, social status and probably a dozen other criteria I'm not thinking of). But I think most readers would recognize that some stories are more ambitious than others, and some of the most ambitious fulfill their ambitions better than others. and some stories are not particularly ambitious but good fun to read when you're at a point where that's what you want to read.
 
Another branch of this discussion which might elucidate on what informs our take on literary/non etc, is asking oneself why it’s important to define a difference?

What’s our motivation for nailing these definitions? Is it from a point of snobbery as discussed upthread, a need to be ‘right’, or an academic debate where one’s not partisan to one’s opinion (the above-mentioned trying to ‘convert’ someone).

I suspect these definitions were more important decades ago and it’s a generational thing (ie being more important to elder genre fans). Certainly the discussions Dan and I have had with industry experts for the Chronscast find the definitions somewhat amusing and unimportant.

My personal bugbear (which I won’t go into here and take the thread OT) is the definition of ‘horror’ which is probably the most imprecise and over-generalised genre we have (and is an emotion, not a ‘thing’).
 
Another branch of this discussion which might elucidate on what informs our take on literary/non etc, is asking oneself why it’s important to define a difference?
Don't really have an answer for this, but in the past it's been a part of defining one's culture. What represents your culture better, For Whom the Bell Tolls or A Princess of Mars? The Spoils of Poynton or The House Without a Key?

You may well be right in feeling there was more pressure on previous generations to arrive at that definition, but it also gave artists -- and some writers do think of themselves as artists rather than as entertainers -- a goal to reach. For what it's worth, I recently read "Getting Good," an essay by Richard Russo discussing the growth of self-publishing in the wake of the Internet, and he raised some very good points on the subject.

My personal bugbear (which I won’t go into here and take the thread OT) is the definition of ‘horror’ which is probably the most imprecise and over-generalised genre we have (and is an emotion, not a ‘thing’).

Yeah. Dask and I snipped back and forth about that just a short while ago, neither of us convincing the other.
 
???????????
His spaceships are powered by wormholes connected to the past and cooled by calculations:

How is this also not wildly fictional?
 
What represents your culture better, For Whom the Bell Tolls or A Princess of Mars? The Spoils of Poynton or The House Without a Key?
What is interesting (or not), is that 'representing your culture' does seem to be a major factor in the selection. "The human condition" and all that. Some would disagree, but works that don't speak to the idea of what it is to be human and alive right now have a hard time breaking in.
 
Thing is, fantasy, s.f. and horror can speak to the human condition, but often does it more obliquely than realist fiction. And many "mainstream" writers (for lack of a better term) do tap into that, just as some tap into mystery/crime.
 
I wonder if it is because "Literature" is the great writing of the ordinary, whilst SF and other genre work is by its nature extraordinary? Banks creates really exotic SF, but also turns a very original lens on contemporary life. I think it nearly impossible to do both at the same time - one disqualifies the other.
Not sure I understand you, Swank,, but some thoughts..

Surely an 'ordinary' novel can turn an original eye on ordinary human issues and feelings? I'm sure lots of Literature does this...

Surely the only lens we have is the one we were born with, as a 21st century Homo sapiens. How would one invent another one? Now that WOULD be creative. Does Banks do this? Actually, some of Cherryh's aliens (the Kif in particular) are the most convincing examples I know of where an author manages to get outside thinking like a human.

*Never read,
 
Not sure I understand you, Swank,, but some thoughts..

Surely an 'ordinary' novel can turn an original eye on ordinary human issues and feelings? I'm sure lots of Literature does this...

Surely the only lens we have is the one we were born with, as a 21st century Homo sapiens. How would one invent another one? Now that WOULD be creative. Does Banks do this? Actually, some of Cherryh's aliens (the Kif in particular) are the most convincing examples I know of where an author manages to get outside thinking like a human.

*Never read,
I think you pretty much restated my premise: "Literature" is great writing focused primarily on non-exotic, contemporary life. Not romantic or horrifying history, nor esoteric future possibilities.

SF can and does produce convincing alien viewpoints. But does anyone think that makes it Literature? Or just good writing?
 
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I do wonder how much 30 years of ridiculous sci-fi magazine covers influenced the demeaning attitude.
Screenshot_20220517-202102.jpg

It is all the fault of tasteless teenage boys and soulless capitalism. LOL
 
I do wonder how much 30 years of ridiculous sci-fi magazine covers influenced the demeaning attitude.
View attachment 89640
It is all the fault of tasteless teenage boys and soulless capitalism. LOL

Caption competition anyone? I'll start:

The previous occupant of the tanning bed tried to warn Jane about the power being turned up way too high.
 
I think you pretty much restated my premise: "Literature" is great writing focused primarily on non-exotic, contemporary life. Not romantic or horrifying history, nor esoteric future possibilities.

SF can and does produce convincing alien viewpoints. But does anyone think that makes it Literature? Or just good writing?
But not all SF is spaceships and aliens, Swank. Ballard's beautifully-written SF explored climate-driven dystopia and population pressure, Silverberg looked at the tragedy of lost potential in Dying Inside and Bradbury wrote heartbreakingly about the perils of nuclear war in There Will Come Soft Rains. I would say one could make a strong claim for any of these works to be considered 'literature', or at the very least closer to literature than sub-literature, on Extollager's spectrum.
 
I've reported this to Admins so we will see if they can shed any light. :)
(FTR it wasn't Christine W who proposed Jules Verne, it was Elckerlyc.)
This has been an ongoing problem for some time and I'm afraid I have no solution to it. I suspect the issue is that there are so many people subscribed to so many thread that it's causing a flood of emails that end up bottlenecked in the server as it limits the number of outgoing emails, but whenever I try to increase that limit the flood of email notifications causes the emails to be black listed as spam and not delivered anyway!
 
But not all SF is spaceships and aliens, Swank. Ballard's beautifully-written SF explored climate-driven dystopia and population pressure, Silverberg looked at the tragedy of lost potential in Dying Inside and Bradbury wrote heartbreakingly about the perils of nuclear war in There Will Come Soft Rains. I would say one could make a strong claim for any of these works to be considered 'literature', or at the very least closer to literature than sub-literature, on Extollager's spectrum.
What does that have to do with the narrow topic of human vs alien viewpoint as literature?
 
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