90 percent of rejections are not due to bad prose

I dive straight into extensive editing as soon as I finish a novel, often on the same day, and work on it until it's ready for my two trusty readers.
Much different, I would imagine, with a novel rather than a short story. I can't help myself from revising and revising. But once I'm sure it's Done, I set it aside.
Working like that with 20 pages is much faster than 200 I expect. I've only written a novel once, but I still don't think it's Done.
 
I don't think Steve is that notable an exception. Online, you hear a lot of people say that they always put their writing away between drafts, because Stephen King (or whoever else they've been getting advice from) says it's the right thing to do, but that doesn't make it a universal rule. You hear a lot of stuff again and again online, because writing sites tend to be echo chambers. Any given piece of advice might work well for many writers and be well worth a try for anyone who is still trying to figure things out, but that doesn't mean it works for everyone, or even nearly everyone.

Usually when I finish a draft (unless it's the final one), my head is just teeming with all the decisions I have made along the way and all the things I want to change—expand, eliminate, revise, edit, etc.—and the last thing I would want to do is put the writing aside for months and give myself a chance to forget all of that—and much, much worse, kill all the momentum I have at that point.

For me, the worst thing that ever happens (and I've been doing this for a long time) is anything that kills momentum. It's just fatal to the way that I write. Others may be able to put something away for weeks or months and then pick it up at some point in the future and keep on going, but for me that makes getting back into the routine of writing the hardest thing ever.
 
Well, due to my training as a publicist I have also found out quite a bit about the creative process; in fact I based my thesis on that (you would be surprised to know that there is even a so-called "creative diet"), so my theory about it is that when you are writing the process is combinatorial, both because while you write you are thinking so much about the writing, the order of sentences, grammar, etc., as in the ideas that you must transmit according to your previously outlined outline or a simple guideline that tells you what comes next. But it's a different process than review, which is more analytical and not as creative or visually random. I even think that within the writing process itself, we should not stop until we are sure that all the ideas and all that boiling broth have cooled down properly, and that, as you know, can take up to a week after putting the word "end" of the first manuscript, because it is guaranteed that you will continue to receive a bombardment of ideas even while you sleep. :ninja:
That's interesting, but it assumes a writer can't instantly switch into review/editing mode after finishing a manuscript. I understand if writers don't want to do that, but I don't see the process of immediately editing as any different to editing before or after a writing session. It just involves employing a different writing skill set. I find it quite refreshing.
 
To riff on two things I saw on the front page

"Surely good prose must be essential when there's so much competition"

Well the obvious problem there is that good prose is very subjective isn't it? I am very adamant in my view that simple, quick-reading prose that doesn't have any fussy constructions that trip you up is, in the right place, good prose. I'm pretty sure I'm not in the majority there but that doesn't stop me believing it. All it takes is one agent who believes the same as me and one commissioning editor who thinks "it'll sell" and ta-dah! You have a book getting published that not everyone will think has good prose. Repeat the same thing with purple prose, with angular experimental prose, and you get the picture.

Although frankly I could have just said look at 50 Shades and Dan Brown and Dragonlance and Chris Ryan and *insert which ever author doesn't do it for you here*. We all know stuff that we think is atrocious gets published. I'm just offering logic as to how. And no, it doesn't torpedo books. I saw one guy release a book that I thought was a Cthulian abomination, it got absolutely trashed on Goodreads so I'm not alone... and the author has already sold his next book.

"In an ideal world you'd have it all in your book"

Well yes, yes you would, but none of us are in an ideal world and we've got to make choices about what we focus the most craft on. If you've got twenty minutes to cook a meal, you're probably going to take some shortcuts. For authors whose writing is often a third or fourth priority - or full time authors who need to keep producing books - there's limited revision time. Nothing wrong with making prose the god, but it will hurt other areas unless you're very good, or willing to spend forever.

Finally, I'd like to offer a quote from a Gemmell interview

"2. Have you ever written a book, not been happy with it, but had it accepted and published anyway?

Every time. Authors always feel they could do better given more time, more money, more praise, more cuddles. The truth is that mostly we can’t."

He also remarked that while he could have rewritten his first book, Legend, to be technically better, he could have never improved its spirit, and its spirit was all.

Others have already championed this sort of mentality but in this thread, but I'll champion it again. Do your damn best, don't think prose doesn't matter at all... but it's not the be all and end all for everyone.
 
Usually when I finish a draft (unless it's the final one), my head is just teeming with all the decisions I have made along the way and all the things I want to change—expand, eliminate, revise, edit, etc.—and the last thing I would want to do is put the writing aside for months and give myself a chance to forget all of that—and much, much worse, kill all the momentum I have at that point.

Well, as far as I see it, it is the case that you do not feel that you have finished the creative process, so, as you say, it is not recommended that you stop it at that stage until you are sure that your muse has nothing more to say about it. This is a sensation, also as you say, completely personal and variable according to the moment.

Side note 1: I still think @Steve Harrison is an idol! Monster, extraterrestial! :p

Side note 2: hey, @ckatt: what are your intentions with that novel you speak of? If you want I can take a read, because I don't like that there are almost finished projects and they stay in limbo. Let me know.

To riff on two things I saw on the front page

"Surely good prose must be essential when there's so much competition"

Well the obvious problem there is that good prose is very subjective isn't it? I am very adamant in my view that simple, quick-reading prose that doesn't have any fussy constructions that trip you up is, in the right place, good prose. I'm pretty sure I'm not in the majority there but that doesn't stop me believing it. All it takes is one agent who believes the same as me and one commissioning editor who thinks "it'll sell" and ta-dah! You have a book getting published that not everyone will think has good prose. Repeat the same thing with purple prose, with angular experimental prose, and you get the picture.

Although frankly I could have just said look at 50 Shades and Dan Brown and Dragonlance and Chris Ryan and *insert which ever author doesn't do it for you here*. We all know stuff that we think is atrocious gets published. I'm just offering logic as to how. And no, it doesn't torpedo books. I saw one guy release a book that I thought was a Cthulian abomination, it got absolutely trashed on Goodreads so I'm not alone... and the author has already sold his next book.

"In an ideal world you'd have it all in your book"

Well yes, yes you would, but none of us are in an ideal world and we've got to make choices about what we focus the most craft on. If you've got twenty minutes to cook a meal, you're probably going to take some shortcuts. For authors whose writing is often a third or fourth priority - or full time authors who need to keep producing books - there's limited revision time. Nothing wrong with making prose the god, but it will hurt other areas unless you're very good, or willing to spend forever.

Finally, I'd like to offer a quote from a Gemmell interview

"2. Have you ever written a book, not been happy with it, but had it accepted and published anyway?

Every time. Authors always feel they could do better given more time, more money, more praise, more cuddles. The truth is that mostly we can’t."

He also remarked that while he could have rewritten his first book, Legend, to be technically better, he could have never improved its spirit, and its spirit was all.

Others have already championed this sort of mentality but in this thread, but I'll champion it again. Do your damn best, don't think prose doesn't matter at all... but it's not the be all and end all for everyone.

And yet when The Road swept the Pulitzer, and The Yiddish Policemen's Union did the same with the Nebula, the Hugo and the Locus, both by authors who actually came from the mainstream, the general opinion of the fandom is that the treatment of the central idea in both stories was, at least, "basic", and the idea wasn't a flash of creativity either.
But they were WELL written.
My overall conclusion is that we are missing two things:
1. Ambition. But not in an arrogant sense, but of thinking, and rethinking, and rethinking, WHAT story can have a moderately decent and/or novel breaking point, apart from being reasonably written.
I'll give you just one example: at least those of us who work in advertising know that the core concept behind a successful campaign ALWAYS requires 80% thinking and only the remaining 20% is execution (or writing).
Or in musical terms: you don't have to cover Metallica. You have to aim to write better songs than Metallica. That should be our parameter.
2. Patience. And this must be the 20th time I've said it, but it goes for newcomers. If you are twenty years old now, be patient. When you are thirty years old, remain patient. By the time you're forty, you'll already know that patience is the key. And this is new: but, for God's sake, THINK before you write. Do not waste time, nor do you waste the poor readers. If God gave you the tremendous piece of brain you have, then use it.
I swear to God I'll throw an egg at the next guy who does a story with wizards, elves or dragons. :ninja:
 
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My main response to this is "It's just one person's opinion, but it's a pretty decent opinion overall". I feel that we're arguing details to an extent. Two points I'd make are:

1) Everyone works differently, and not every tip/style/concept/etc will work for everyone. That includes not every bit of writing advice working for every writer, and not every editor/publisher liking the same things.

2) Beautiful prose may not be as important as some writers think it is. However, I'm not sure what "beautiful prose" actually is. The prose in, say, Count Zero, 1984 or The Long Goodbye is extremely good, but it isn't "purple".
 
the general opinion of the fandom is that the treatment of the central idea in both stories was, at least, "basic", and the idea wasn't a flash of creativity either.
I think this is evidence of my minimum standard view. As long as everything else passes a minimum bar (which is not a low standard just a minimum) the stand-out feature can propel something to greatness.
As a new writer, it's hard to know where one stands, if anything passes muster.
I'm still not sure where I stand in the big picture, but some of the work I'm most proud of has received much positive feedback so I know I'm doing something right.
That said, they tell me impostor syndrome never goes away...

@Toby Frost William Gibson is a tricky one. I love his work but I know many people find him unreadable. I enjoy that some of his sentences are hard to penetrate and I sometimes must re-read a line several times. But others find this is grounds to stop reading. But I trust him as a writer and assume that everything he's done has been carefully thought out. New writers won't have that.

@DLCroix That would be cool. At the moment it's not in a readable state. Once I finished it, I had tons of notes on things I wanted to change and got about halfway there before life got in the way. Then I thought I should warm back up with short stories and now I keep getting new ideas that get in the way of me returning to the novel. I have promised myself that when I'm done with the two I'm working on now I'll get back to the novel. So I hope can be done by the fall.
 
I agree. If you are constantly receiving ideas, it means that your muse is inspired, which consequently plunges you into a creative frenzy in which I could even bet that you do not have enough time to take note of everything. So go easy, as each creative process has its own characteristics, some work right away while others require more work, and there is no way to change that, rushing will only add unnecessary tension. But I think you're doing well by going step by step. Patience, like I said.

On the other hand, Gibson is one of the authors who have been deflating. For me he has gone from more to less in rigor. His novels no longer have the same substance and conceptual capacity as before. In fact he is one of those that I used to watch very carefully because he taught me several things. :ninja:
 
On the other hand, Gibson is one of the authors who have been deflating. For me he has gone from more to less in rigor. His novels no longer have the same substance and conceptual capacity as before. In fact he is one of those that I used to watch very carefully because he taught me several things.
It thought The Peripheral was one of his finest works.
 
It thought The Peripheral was one of his finest works.

Somewhere I have The Peripheral. It is the first Gibson novel that I did not finish. I don't know, it didn't catch me, the same thing happened to me as with Greg Bear's Queen of Angels. In the latter, reading was heavy with so many plots that also remain open. I don't know, manias that happen to one. :ninja:
 
I think this is evidence of my minimum standard view. As long as everything else passes a minimum bar (which is not a low standard just a minimum) the stand-out feature can propel something to greatness.
As a new writer, it's hard to know where one stands, if anything passes muster.
I'm still not sure where I stand in the big picture, but some of the work I'm most proud of has received much positive feedback so I know I'm doing something right.
That said, they tell me impostor syndrome never goes away...

This. So much this. I don't get how any reader trying to employ a sense of objectivity over a wide spread of successful published fiction can disagree. There's so much stuff that gets criticised or shrugged at on a lot of levels but that still gets a bunch of fans because somewhere the alchemy really makes them go "wow".

Not that this is a terribly good mindset for a writer sitting down to work. But for a writer looking at their revisions? Can be golden.
 
I think that a good part of us who are here know what our strengths and weaknesses are. We don't write two months ago. We have done it for years, some of us for decades. And it's not arrogant either, but who the hell is Evelyn Freeling? What has she posted? Has she won any contests? Without the Internet, they wouldn't know that lady even in her neighborhood. I'm not saying the article is wrong, but I don't subscribe to much of what she says there either. I prefer to believe Eduardo Carletti and Sergio Gaut vel Hartman much more, who have been with Axxon Argentina for 3 decades, have trained thousands of writers and have been translated into several languages. I preferred to believe Miquel Barceló (RIP). Even in the Spanish fandom I know several UPC and Minotaur awards that could teach new authors.
Right here I believe much more in the tips of TJ, @Teresa Edgerton, @Christine Wheelwright. With what they know they can teach literature. On the other hand, I also think that @tinkerdan's analyzes tend to be almost surgically. That boy is wasting here, he should be an editor. Another author whose reviews are a gift to aspiring writers is @Jo Zebedee.

Maybe we shouldn't believe someone much if a simple Google search is extinguished in 2 pages and it's only about Goodreads, FB and Twitter. However, we also have to recognize that if @ckatt doesn't wake up and open this thread, we wouldn't have discussed all these things from which I guess we've all learned something valuable, especially the new ones, so the credit is entirely his because there is a search, there is thirst. His instinct produced all of this. I prefer to stay with that. :ninja:
 

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