Does this economic system make any sense?

[Bramandin]

I realize that it would break down if there was any mobility or if the settlement is too large.

Both of the settlements I'm thinking of mainly use a ledger system and petty transactions are done with trade goods, usually food for the one.

Blackrock is the settlement that's holed up in a coal mine. The only literate people are administrators, though most people know numbers and a handful of simple pictograms. When someone receives goods in payment for their work, they sign a tablet made of oil-based clay with a chop. People are warned if they go a little bit into debt and I don't know what happens when they go a lot into debt.

Tarmin Pass uses paper ledgers and near-everyone can read. While not everyone knows everyone else, someone usually isn't walking to the far end of town to get lunch. Kerwin of the clothguild can go to the local foodshop, ask for what he needs, and can trust that the foodshop person is writing down the right numbers. The shopkeepers have their ledgers compared periodically to see if anyone is taking more than they contribute. If they're too out of balance, there is social pressure to shape up and repay what they owe. Dishonesty is punished by shunning.

 

[Karn's Return]

Thing is, as you've said, barter system only extends so far. That said, it's worked for civilizations in the past for a while, but I believe tech would always put it obsolete anyway, especially by the time spacefaring can occur.

 

[Bramandin]

Thing is, as you've said, barter system only extends so far. That said, it's worked for civilizations in the past for a while, but I believe tech would always put it obsolete anyway, especially by the time spacefaring can occur.

This is a fantasy world where people have trouble traveling unless they're traders. There was currency before the not-zombie apocalypse, but deals between Blackrock and the traders are in goods and handled by the administrators.

If the ledger system was expanded to be good for a widespread area where there were a lot of people that could easily travel... The chops would probably become a string of characters so that they were easy to tell one from another, probably a malleable material so they could be molded instead of handmade, with a complex symbol that would be hard for people to duplicate with common tools to show that they're authentic. They might also switch to making rubbings to not get ink on them, and paper which is more durable than clay and will retain inked details of the transaction. There would probably be a network of institutions to handle the flow of conceptual money instead of having shopkeepers having to coordinate on their own.

 

[Swank]

There is no exchange rate. A bushel of wheat has variable seasonal value, yet payment isn't immediate. That wouldn't work.

 

[Karn's Return]

Inflation and value adjustments would have to be considered, true. I wouldn't ever try a ledger system, but go with physical goods barter system instead.

 

[Bramandin]

There is no exchange rate. A bushel of wheat has variable seasonal value, yet payment isn't immediate. That wouldn't work.

I'm a little confused. Granted that I'm not too knowledgeable about how real-world economics work. I did hear how the Government told farmers to stop growing so much grain before/during the Great Depression and the farmers tried to grow more so they could get money despite grain prices being low.

I just looked it up, and it seems like there is only one wheat harvest per year, and we could also say that Tarmin Pass only shears their sheep once per year. I'm thinking that the farmers turn their crops into the distributor at harvest, they're immediately paid in conceptual money on the ledger, that's what they live off of for the year unless they can pick up other tasks while they're not doing things with the wheat. (There's probably a group of people who help harvest whatever is ready through the growing season.)

I'm sure that there's some way to smooth out yearly supply and demand. If a good year produces more grain than they need, surely it could be stored in a way where a bad year doesn't lead to famine... 18 months so it might get a bit dicey but can be done. I haven't decided if they make alcohol, but it would be weird not to unless there's some reason.

I have no idea how their government works except that they have a group of people that are listened to.

 

[Christine Wheelwright]

I quite like this. Sure, there would be some problems but you can say that about our modern system of economics (not fit for purpose in my opinion). The way I see it, you would get some credit for your contribution to society which you could then use to 'pay' for goods and services from others. The ledger would have to be somewhat centralized, so this would only work well for a smallish society.

 

[Bramandin]

I quite like this. Sure, there would be some problems but you can say that about our modern system of economics (not fit for purpose in my opinion). The way I see it, you would get some credit for your contribution to society which you could then use to 'pay' for goods and services from others. The ledger would have to be somewhat centralized, so this would only work well for a smallish society.

That's pretty much where I'm going. The society is bent towards "we're all in this together" but where it can be enforced with violence if someone is going against society running smoothly. Everyone contributes, their contribution is assigned a fair number, wealth-gap is measured in leisure time or at least how much physical rest vs physical activity they need to do. Being able to have more than you need somehow isn't going to do much good and likely to piss everyone off if being rich is more than having a high score.

 

[Christine Wheelwright]

That's pretty much where I'm going. The society is bent towards "we're all in this together" but where it can be enforced with violence if someone is going against society running smoothly. Everyone contributes, their contribution is assigned a fair number, wealth-gap is measured in leisure time or at least how much physical rest vs physical activity they need to do. Being able to have more than you need somehow isn't going to do much good and likely to piss everyone off if being rich is more than having a high score.

You could choose to reward according to effort/time rather than according to absolute value of contribution (or rarity of skillset). So a fruit picker gets the same credit for a day of work as, say, a blacksmith. So it becomes some kind of Marxist utopia. Or dystopia (depending upon which way you want to take it).

 

[Bramandin]

You could choose to reward according to effort/time rather than according to absolute value of contribution (or rarity of skillset). So a fruit picker gets the same credit for a day of work as, say, a blacksmith. So it becomes some kind of Marxist utopia. Or dystopia (depending upon which way you want to take it).

I think it's needs to be a little imbalanced as far as time vs reward or everyone will want to do the easy stuff instead of the hard stuff, even if some people naturally want to be fruit harvesters while others want to be blacksmiths. I heard in the original Utopia book, everyone was paid the same, but garbagemen had short workdays while CEO had to put in all of their time.

I did decide that my society has guilds where they collectively decide how many people they can have. Too many people in the cloth guild means light work but a lot of mouths for the amount of food people are willing to trade for it. Too few people means that they don't get downtime while they struggle to keep up with demand. It's a technical monopoly, but it's a lot easier to keep things fair if price-gouging can be answered with flesh-gouging. It's like how people are more polite if you're able to punch them in the face.

 

[Christine Wheelwright]

This is where we debate whether garbagemen are more useful to society than CEOs (answer: yes)

 

[Swank]

I'm a little confused. Granted that I'm not too knowledgeable about how real-world economics work. I did hear how the Government told farmers to stop growing so much grain before/during the Great Depression and the farmers tried to grow more so they could get money despite grain prices being low.

I just looked it up, and it seems like there is only one wheat harvest per year, and we could also say that Tarmin Pass only shears their sheep once per year. I'm thinking that the farmers turn their crops into the distributor at harvest, they're immediately paid in conceptual money on the ledger, that's what they live off of for the year unless they can pick up other tasks while they're not doing things with the wheat. (There's probably a group of people who help harvest whatever is ready through the growing season.)

I'm sure that there's some way to smooth out yearly supply and demand. If a good year produces more grain than they need, surely it could be stored in a way where a bad year doesn't lead to famine... 18 months so it might get a bit dicey but can be done. I haven't decided if they make alcohol, but it would be weird not to unless there's some reason.

I have no idea how their government works except that they have a group of people that are listened to.

The problem is basic: This is a credit system, but a farmer's time in winter has little bargaining value compared to a winter in demand item like fur. But if the fur trapper doesn't settle his debt til summer, the valur of the barter has changed. Having an idea of fixed value requires at least a currency to remove the debt from the world of barter once established.

 

[Danny McG]

If I was reading a story and a description of this payments system was being info dumped then I'd skip right past it and try to catch up the main story arc instead

 

[Bramandin]

If I was reading a story and a description of this payments system was being info dumped then I'd skip right past it and try to catch up the main story arc instead

Hence why this is in the lounge instead of one of the writing sections. Pretty much all I'm planning to put into the story is that Blackrock uses chops while Tarmin pass doesn't. Maybe a few more lines about it will be peppered in.

It looks like it's believable enough that a fantasy world could have cashless societies as long as they're self-contained and small enough. If the borders become open enough for tourism in the story, they're pulling out those shiny bits of metal they used before the world went to hell. Not sure how long they'd circulate before they were melted down so a new face could be stamped on them.

The problem is basic: This is a credit system, but a farmer's time in winter has little bargaining value compared to a winter in demand item like fur. But if the fur trapper doesn't settle his debt til summer, the valur of the barter has changed. Having an idea of fixed value requires at least a currency to remove the debt from the world of barter once established.

I don't see the difference between trading five buckskins for five bits of metal and then trading the bits of metal for grain later... versus a shopkeeper writing down that the trapper can later have five bucks worth of grain or whatever else he wants, whenever he asks, provided that it's available. I don't know, maybe they even work out an agreement right there that the five bucks he's paying now is worth X pounds of grain later.

I forgot to mention it earlier, but I was planning on every household having one of these so they can keep track of their wealth like balancing a checkbook. Or maybe people who get paid once a year just keep a tally-stick.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Do you think it possible that you might get too hung-up on intricacies and details of world building, and in talking about your writing with other people, when you might devote that time to actually writing the story instead?

I ask, because the detail thing has been known to stall me from time to time in my own writing (and I know it has been the same with other writers I know), but sometimes if I just continue on the characters and the plot sort of naturally create the details that I have been looking for. I mean, if it is something vital to the way the plot unfolds, then of course you need to get it figured out as soon as you can, but if it is just background meant to give your world depth, then there might be more important things you could be doing first. If you allowed things to develop organically, rather than over-thinking things (I don't say that is what you are doing, but I'm throwing it out there as a possibility) then you might not need to ask others for input quite so often, because things will work themselves out in ways that you feel more confident about.

 

[Swank]

I don't see the difference between trading five buckskins for five bits of metal and then trading the bits of metal for grain later... versus a shopkeeper writing down that the trapper can later have five bucks worth of grain or whatever else he wants, whenever he asks, provided that it's available. I don't know, maybe they even work out an agreement right there that the five bucks he's paying now is worth X pounds of grain later.

Because "5 bucks" is not a concept that exists in your world. That is a currency exchange. Barter systems ignore absolute value and are based on the knowledge of the barterers of their mutual level of need and assets - since these people know each other.

It comes down to this - would you trade your stereo for a bushel of potatoes if you were starving? Would the only guy in town who has potatoes to sell charge the same as he would when food is common? The answers are yes and no. People will spend more for things they absolutely must have and people with price gouge if they can. Observe the phrases "name your price" and "price gouging". These are normal exchange philosophies.

By adding a credit feature, you are making the necessary barters made in hard times and expecting people to pay them at hard times rates but when the balance of power is different. No one is so fair minded that they wouldn't attempt to re-bargain or resent the exchange.

Hard times aside, nearly everything in agrarian societies is seasonal. The value of a farmer's time during the harvest is astronomical. The value of food in early spring is similar. Mid winter farmer's have nearly nothing to do and will happily take on labor tasks for low rates.

That's why I don't think a barter/credit system would work - it would be destabilizing for people to be in different places when they take on a debt and pay it when they don't have concepts like absolute value to make the process more 'academic' and transform their debt into a simple number.

 

[Bramandin]

Do you think it possible that you might get too hung-up on intricacies and details of world building, and in talking about your writing with other people, when you might devote that time to actually writing the story instead?

This one is procrastination because I'm not sure where to go next because I got to the part I was aiming for. If you need me to shut up, you're going to have to be direct. I got 700 useful words yesterday and I don't know how many minor edits. Today was just minor edits and a bit of trying to have a conversation about how a man bought food without a seal.

I don't know, what's more riveting? MC being wowed by the minor differences in how people buy things in his new village, him eating his first cheese sandwich, a description of how they make cloth, a detailed scene where he learns to card wool, or should I go directly to him lying about how the heck he got there? Him thinking about how he left his dad's seal at home and probably can't go back to get it upset him a little, but I'm not sure how valuable that is. He has nothing from his old life until the other boy gives him his shirt back.

Worldbuilding-wise, I did determine that the monsters tattoo numbers onto their livestock, unless that's too insensitive because their livestock is humans. Not sure if I'd even use it unless someone wants to play a guessing-game about where he comes from. And I need to change cat to dog in one scene because they don't have cats. (No reason for them because they'd be competition for the rats and otherwise useless.) Other than that, the only other thing I got accomplished today was picking out a new electric tea kettle.

 

[Bramandin]

Because "5 bucks" is not a concept that exists in your world.

I said that they use a ledger system. Direct barter is just for petty transactions. I'm not sure how the actual nuts and bolts of controlling price fluctuations work, not that it matters, but as far as I can tell the difference between it and green pieces of paper is that it doesn't fall out of your pocket because you're not carrying it around. I rarely even use the green pieces of paper.

There also isn't price gouging because if someone is being unfair and enough people agree that they're being unfair, there could be bloodshed. Imagine if it was socially acceptable to punch the guy whose cart was overflowing with toilet paper during a supply hiccup. Even if it doesn't turn violent, someone with plenty of dodgecoin might not be able to spend it on things they need or they'll get gouged back so that things get more even again.

I don't necessarily need to figure out what the farmers are doing besides sitting on their thumbs all winter. MC turns wool into clothing and I assume that weavers run out of yarn at just about the time when they shear and need to start spinning again.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I don't know, what's more riveting? MC being wowed by the minor differences in how people buy things in his new village, him eating his first cheese sandwich, a description of how they make cloth, a detailed scene where he learns to card wool, or should I go directly to him lying about how the heck he got there? Him thinking about how he left his dad's seal at home and probably can't go back to get it upset him a little, but I'm not sure how valuable that is. He has nothing from his old life until the other boy gives him his shirt back.

Perhaps a more important question is which one helps to move the plot along.

 

[Bramandin]

Perhaps a more important question is which one helps to move the plot along.

*checks notes*

I hate to keep asking for help, but I'm getting tangled up and could use a talking-through.

For my mental health, I need to be working on something. I could fill that with Tanya and Sarah from my fanfiction having repetitive arguments until I work out their chemistry problem, but I'd like to be a bit more productive than that. The past few days I've been binge-reading Circle of...

www.sffchronicles.com

I'm pretty much on the transition from 3 to 4. Or... Entering an unfamiliar situation is a form of getting what he desires because his zone of comfort was neglect and abuse. He has to adapt and get a new desire before there's a price.

Maybe I'm several thousand words in and just now getting to the beginning? He's just now entering a zone of comfort and doesn't want anything particular right now except for maybe keeping what he has.

Maybe I should stop and read Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret because that might be a similar story to what I'm writing.

If I am in the adapt to the situation phase, then learning about the local idiosyncrasies is the current plot phase. I don't think that I could skip it. It would be like taking Sugar Isn't Everything and cutting out all the educational stuff about diabetes.