Does this economic system make any sense?

[Swank]

I said that they use a ledger system. Direct barter is just for petty transactions. I'm not sure how the actual nuts and bolts of controlling price fluctuations work, not that it matters, but as far as I can tell the difference between it and green pieces of paper is that it doesn't fall out of your pocket because you're not carrying it around. I rarely even use the green pieces of paper.

There also isn't price gouging because if someone is being unfair and enough people agree that they're being unfair, there could be bloodshed. Imagine if it was socially acceptable to punch the guy whose cart was overflowing with toilet paper during a supply hiccup. Even if it doesn't turn violent, someone with plenty of dodgecoin might not be able to spend it on things they need or they'll get gouged back so that things get more even again.

I don't necessarily need to figure out what the farmers are doing besides sitting on their thumbs all winter. MC turns wool into clothing and I assume that weavers run out of yarn at just about the time when they shear and need to start spinning again.

Perhaps you should choose questions that you have not already decided you know the answers to?

 

[.matthew.]

Honestly, it sounds like the rulers (be they official or de facto) of the settlement would end up dictating the value of the non-petty trades, which has never worked out. It invariably ends in tyranny. What would happen if someone didn't want to trade their goods for what they considered an unfair price? Would they be forced? Would they not be, but not allowed to trade at their chosen price, restricting access to those goods for others?

How about supply chains? The building blocks of a product are often worth considerably less than the sum of their parts, but the final process would likely be much faster than the first steps.

Why is there not a basic standard currency? If they have the tools to mine and access to coal and furnaces etc, it wouldn't be difficult to make coinage. In a small community, it makes even more sense to do so, as it would be easy to prevent counterfeiting.

Individual wealth is also a huge boon to small economies as well, allowing those with the wherewithal to create more opportunities for themselves and consequently, the community they are a part of. Look at coal mining or the industrial revolution in general, entirely driven by entrepreneurs trying to one-up each other and eke out every scrap of efficiency they could.

At the end of the day, a free market system is one where every transaction creates a wealth of some sort that everyone involved finds acceptable.

That said, it's a story and if you're going for a dystopian feel, the state control system you have could create a lot of interesting plot points.

 

[Bramandin]

That said, it's a story and if you're going for a dystopian feel, the state control system you have could create a lot of interesting plot points.

I think that perhaps I should consider a short story where it's set in the same world, but it's about all of the dystopian stuff that goes on. I'm learning a lot for what should have been just background stuff.

Blackrock is a tyranny. I have no idea how, but they were pretty much chattel that somehow managed to kick the monsters out. From there, nothing much changed. The mycoprotein is distributed fairly to those who work, the only things to buy really are bits of rat and patches for clothing, women don't have what we consider human rights, and leaving isn't an attractive option. Nothing much would be different if Blackrock was an asteroid.

Tarmin Pass is an interesting puzzle. The families still have their coinage from the before-time, they just switched to conceptual currency because it was more convenient, but they've been cut off for generations. There was a portal built two years ago (precursor/advanced race) that goes to elsewhere so I guess the status-quo is being held together by inertia and might start falling apart while the story is happening. That could actually be part of the plot as the local wool made on human-powered looms becomes less valuable in the face of factories cranking out cotton cloth. Threatening MC's livelihood might be an extra push for him to do something else because comfort is not guaranteed if he stays in place.

I really wish that school hadn't soured me so much on history; they always approached it from a political angle when the technological angle is actually interesting. Now I have an attention span that just isn't trained for it. Just because I'm working in a fantasy doesn't mean I have to choose between medieval stasis and steampunk. This is more like what if we were at a different tech level at the fall of Rome and set during the transition from dark ages to renaissance. The real disservice is that school focused on westward expansion so the technology was always primitive essentialism that was behind what Europe had when we got started until suddenly trains, cars, and electricity appeared overnight.

Sorry, getting off-topic but I'm leaving it.

What good is individual wealth beyond a high score when there's nothing to spend it on? Say the cloth guild could somehow get away with charging prices that give them the ability to buy twice as much food as they need. What would they do with that? Everyone who's able to do something useful is needed to do that useful thing or things start going out of balance. That's not to say that they couldn't buy materials for the fruit harvester who spends their winters trying to invent stuff... or bribe the gemshornist to play a song that only they like. If clothiers somehow actually bought twice as much food as they need while someone else doesn't have enough, people might decide that they'd rather wear tattered clothing until the cloth guild learns how to be neighborly. Or maybe the clothiers on the south side of town specialize in the rougher cloth while the ones on the north make cloth that's more about comfort than durability, but people only do business with one because they're not being greedy.

Okay, this is way off-topic, but now I have got to write a short story about a guy on the other side of the world who wears a sweater from Tarmin Pass as a sign of conspicuous consumption when it's 35C in the winter. "A little old lady in the Andes crafted this with nothing but two sticks!"

The rulers of Tarmin Pass are pretty much "The old people that most people listen to" but people aren't going to listen to them if they step too far out of line. I'm coming up with a blank on any stable civilization where power imbalances didn't creep in. Islands. Being cut off by not-zombies is as good as being cut off by a treacherous ocean. Does Hawaii have a pre-contact history to look up... Exactly what I wasn't after.

They were just forcibly converted from maltheism to misotheism. (Is it maltheism if you don't know that your god is evil?) Maybe religion had a stabilizing effect on the economy. Manipulating the people into a way of life that's decent but doesn't grow might suit an evil god's plan.

 

[Christine Wheelwright]

I find alternative economic systems interesting (not least because I think the one the World has ended up with is quite deficient but somehow seen as inevitable/untouchable). As others have mentioned, yours is probably quite boring when info-dumped, but could be very interesting when it influences the main storyline.

Wasn't there an episode of Black Mirror where an individuals approval rating (from an app) acted as a form of currency?

 

[The Judge]

Hence why this is in the lounge instead of one of the writing sections.

Nonetheless, it's now very clear that this is a matter for Writing Discussion, so it's being moved over.


By the way, in reply to another of your threads I mentioned that I thought you might benefit from being part of a writing group. It's clear from your posts that you like to talk about your worlds and plots and characters in great detail, which isn't always desirable on an open forum like this one, but is something which would be ideal for a writing group of like-minded individuals where ideas can be discussed and debated.

 

[Aknot]

Relying on what the reader already knows helps in world building. The more you create what is instinctively not understood, the greater the challenge. Not only to get the reader to understand; there is also the risk that you present something that does not make sense.

Furthermore, monetary systems are the result of existing conditions. Before setting up an elaborate solution for a problem that might not exist, ask yourself why the system is there. Also, no culture, more or less, exists in a vacuum. Are there no societies they have contact with that, simply put, uses a smarter system?

Cash was introduced for the ease of doing business and taxation. Especially as societies grew and the value of goods and services differed a lot. Barter is uncertain and uncertainty is never good for anyone doing business. The trust required for barter either limits the size of the society or requires some other means of enforcement (laws, beliefs etc).

But I digress. The key item to me, as others have pointed out, is: does it matter to the plot?

I could, for example, see a smaller agrarian society where serfdom (slavery?) awaits those too burdened by debt. By a strict system of indebtedness an autocratic ruler (or elite) could help keep the populace in check and ensure “free” labor. This has happened throughout our history (alongside a monetary system, but still). The story hooks are quite easy: fight the system, fear of serfdom, free serfs, escape debt, escape slavery etc

Likewise, another, more utopian, version would be a debt system set up to balance so that those in need are supported. In years or hardship debt is allowed to build up so that the worst off dare continue their endeavors, as long as it’s kid off later. Perhaps a religious or moral system goes alongside. Story hooks could be to protect the system from external shocks that threaten it (natural disaster, war, plague), internal threats like power grabs, or that the system on the surface is benign but underneath it revolves around keeping people under a rulers thumb.

All this said, I don’t see anything inherently wrong with what you’re setting up, but I get the impression that you’re making things far too complicated for yourself. So unless you have a plot related reason for not going with the “standard” of silver coins or the like, I would skip it. If it’s pushing your story forward, stick to it and lean on ye olde “accept it and move on” right of any writer.

 

[Bramandin]

Nonetheless, it's now very clear that this is a matter for Writing Discussion, so it's being moved over.


By the way, in reply to another of your threads I mentioned that I thought you might benefit from being part of a writing group. It's clear from your posts that you like to talk about your worlds and plots and characters in great detail, which isn't always desirable on an open forum like this one, but is something which would be ideal for a writing group of like-minded individuals where ideas can be discussed and debated.

Sorry about that. I don't recall seeing the post where you mentioned finding a writing group. Do you have recommendations?

If you want me to cool it, direct language works best on me.

 

[Bramandin]

Relying on what the reader already knows helps in world building. The more you create what is instinctively not understood, the greater the challenge. Not only to get the reader to understand; there is also the risk that you present something that does not make sense.

But I digress. The key item to me, as others have pointed out, is: does it matter to the plot?

All this said, I don’t see anything inherently wrong with what you’re setting up, but I get the impression that you’re making things far too complicated for yourself. So unless you have a plot related reason for not going with the “standard” of silver coins or the like, I would skip it. If it’s pushing your story forward, stick to it and lean on ye olde “accept it and move on” right of any writer.

I might have overdosed a bit on videos criticizing dystopias that are shockingly bad if someone looks at them funny. Hunger Games: pay no attention to the world or how it can possibly work, focus instead on the power-fantasy and love-triangle.

It still feels like I'm slapping the world together, but I do want to make it look like I made some effort without going too deep into it. Plus I really don't do anything else and need a constant distraction from my real life, so worldbuilding takes up my brain when I am stuck for what my next waypoint is. I blame using documentaries as inspiration.

Can't find the meme I saw a few days ago, something about naming four generations of Mexican butterflies.

Are there no societies they have contact with that, simply put, uses a smarter system?

The trust required for barter either limits the size of the society or requires some other means of enforcement (laws, beliefs etc).

The ledger systems both grew out of smarter systems. I determined that in jigan-run places, humans have a tattooed serial number and it's part of their record-keeping. Tarmin Pass was always free, and they found a cashless society more convenient once they became isolated, but the children are still taught how coins work. Even if they still used coins, there might be a comment about Blackrock not using durable currency. Maybe far into the story I could have Radley needing his father's chop. Actually with the new portal about to drive a cultural shift, they might start using actual currency again.

 

[Bramandin]

I find alternative economic systems interesting (not least because I think the one the World has ended up with is quite deficient but somehow seen as inevitable/untouchable). As others have mentioned, yours is probably quite boring when info-dumped, but could be very interesting when it influences the main storyline.

Wasn't there an episode of Black Mirror where an individuals approval rating (from an app) acted as a form of currency?

I haven't watched Black Mirror, save for trying to watch Bandersnatch. I might try when Sandman is available and we get Netflix to watch it.

In Download, there was a guy who was being a con-artist for high ratings in a hookup app.

 

[.matthew.]

What good is individual wealth beyond a high score when there's nothing to spend it on?

You can look at the world today for the answer to that.

Excess wealth creates a demand for luxury goods and all the jobs that go along with that. Perhaps extra wealth would allow people to buy some mushroom-based alcohol on the last workday of the week. This would mean mushroom farmers, brewers, innkeepers, etc, would all be in demand.

It can also be leveraged for further gain, say buying better tools to increase productivity, meaning they could earn more or work less. With people at all levels of society doing this, it increases the available potential for all.

At the end of the day, a system that allows for wealth to be created inspires people to work harder for their own benefit, which then indirectly benefits society. Whenever we've seen systems that take a top-down equitable approach, workers invariably end up doing the absolute bare minimum, often followed by complete collapse.

 

[Bramandin]

Perhaps extra wealth would allow people to buy some mushroom-based alcohol on the last workday of the week. This would mean mushroom farmers, brewers, innkeepers, etc, would all be in demand.

Yeah, the people who eat the mushroom-filled ration-cakes are paid enough that they can get a bit of rat occasionally. Other than that, it's pretty miserable and they might have lived better as slaves.

In Tarmin Pass, I'm still debating about alcohol, but if they have enough grain where it would have to be a bad year for people to go hungry, there probably is alcohol. I don't think they need to feed any to animals just to overwinter them. The inns are pure food and drink establishments since the travelers stopped coming. At least I think it makes sense to have them not cook all of their own food if it's easy to walk to a place that can cook in bulk. It's not like cooking fuel is any cheaper than food unless you can walk out your door for some.

There are better-quality levels of goods, like more comfortable cloth or even pretty colors. Dishes could be pretty. I imagine that the farmers make toys and art in the winter for lack of anything better to do. They're probably copying books by hand instead of using printing-presses even though they know how to make them because setting one up just for one copy of a book seems like a PITA.

I'm not sure about better tools. Unless there are technological improvements that an isolated community can make, they probably got their most efficient tools a few generations ago. Then again the techno-elves have sewing machines and the clothier that I've introduced would probably already have one if he wasn't a bigot. It's not that elves are unwilling to share their tech, it's just... hmm.

Okay, I come from a culture where if aliens landed and announced on the news that they want to share their gadgets, there would be people lining up and willing to fork over the cost of a car to have one of the first ones for sale, possibly without even knowing what it does. Other than the Amish or something, would an entire culture be hesitant to adopt foreign inventions? Is it a matter of figuring out what would actually be beneficial to share? A tractor might not be a good thing to replace ox-driven plows in mountainous terrain, but there's probably something that can get the village producing goods that are worth the technology exchange.

I don't know, maybe the resource-allocators think humans are too stupid to make effective use of the tech. (The techno-elves have some sort of system where nearly everyone works for the government somehow and money is only for stuff that's hard to distribute automatically. ((Clothing and food allowance, they can trade quality of food for a luxury good unless they're ruining their clothes too quickly somehow.)) No, I didn't waste time on this, it's lifted directly from my fanfiction.)

At the end of the day, a system that allows for wealth to be created inspires people to work harder for their own benefit, which then indirectly benefits society. Whenever we've seen systems that take a top-down equitable approach, workers invariably end up doing the absolute bare minimum, often followed by complete collapse.

Does it work to have a narrow margin between the bare minimum and peak performance? In today's world, there are people working as hard as they can to slow down their backward slippage, though there's probably a belief that if they just did a bit better they'd get ahead. It seems like pride and social pressure is also a factor. Why would I pay $25 bucks for a t-shirt with a Star Wars logo instead of $5 for one with an advertisement for the local hardware store? Someone else might actually care what their clothes look like enough to pay more.

For the techno-elves, they are probably culled if they're too lazy. Even though they don't have wealth, the ones that make better contributions get slightly better stuff. Most of them have society over individualism as an ideal.

 

[The Judge]

Sorry about that. I don't recall seeing the post where you mentioned finding a writing group. Do you have recommendations?

It was in the thread you started about adjusting chapter breaks -- you may well have missed it or thought it irrelevant as it was in relation to what I then thought was your lack of confidence about chapter lengths/where to break, but the advice nonetheless holds good.

Have a look around and see if there are any groups operating close to where you live -- it's always advantageous to meet physically if possible, because it's quicker and easier to discuss plot points and the like face-to-face. If that's not possible, or not something you're keen on, then see if there are any online groups, and see how you get on with them. If that draws a blank, then consider starting one, and asking here or on other forums where you're active whether anyone would want to join a group with you. But since a writing group would also be swapping pieces for feedback, it might help if you did a little more critiquing here so other members could assess whether it would fit in with their needs.

 

[The Judge]

Sorry to double post, but I'm putting my mod's hat on now.

Since Bramandin's question was whether her economic system made sense, it's clearly necessary for there to be some talk about economies and how they function in real life. However, discussing the benefits or otherwise of different systems is taking us away from the question in hand and into the realm of social politics, which we don't do here.

We don't want to have to edit or remove posts and we certainly don't want to close the thread, so everyone please remember to keep strictly to the point and the invented system, and don't veer further into commentary on the real world.

 

[Bramandin]

It was in the thread you started about adjusting chapter breaks -- you may well have missed it or thought it irrelevant as it was in relation to what I then thought was your lack of confidence about chapter lengths/where to break, but the advice nonetheless holds good.

Have a look around and see if there are any groups operating close to where you live -- it's always advantageous to meet physically if possible, because it's quicker and easier to discuss plot points and the like face-to-face. If that's not possible, or not something you're keen on, then see if there are any online groups, and see how you get on with them. If that draws a blank, then consider starting one, and asking here or on other forums where you're active whether anyone would want to join a group with you. But since a writing group would also be swapping pieces for feedback, it might help if you did a little more critiquing here so other members could assess whether it would fit in with their needs.

Ah, I see it now. Yeah, I thought it was just in regard to having someone help me decide where to put the breaks when I was just having an organizational problem. I guess the answer is that I risk making a bigger mess as I move chunks of text around because no one uses a tool that does it.

I'm hikikomori and non-charismatic so the writing group might be a problem. I'll cool it on asking for feedback until I have enough story to start posting to Royal Road.

 

[Fiberglass Cyborg]

In the story, I think your description of the means of accounting will have much more impact than an expanation of the economics. It's a vivid image: the Blackrock miners queuing with their chops before the town clerk; the erudite Tarmin guildsmen discretely comparing their impeccably ruled ledgers. Just that says a lot about the two communities.

As to the limitations of barter: cowrie shells were used as a kind of currency across vast regions of Africa, Asia and Oceania for thousands of years, which I'm pretty sure overlapped with both barter and use of metal money. Beads and gambling markers and other kinds of shells have also been used as money in various cultures. Generally small, decorative items. It seems likely that both your settlements would use something like that for trading further afield.

 

[Pyan]

As to the limitations of barter: cowrie shells were used as a kind of currency across vast regions of Africa, Asia and Oceania for thousands of years, which I'm pretty sure overlapped with both barter and use of metal money.

And that’s something I’ve never understood, how it works. Most currencies are based on scarcity: gold, silver, etc. How can a currency work, if all you have to do if you’re a bit short this week is to go for a dive in the lagoon? Are cowries that rare naturally, or has the use of them as money made them artificially scarce?

 

[Fiberglass Cyborg]

And that’s something I’ve never understood, how it works. Most currencies are based on scarcity: gold, silver, etc. How can a currency work, if all you have to do if you’re a bit short this week is to go for a dive in the lagoon? Are cowries that rare naturally, or has the use of them as money made them artificially scarce?

I'm no expert, but there are articles out there on cowrie shell economics.... They were used thousands of miles inland from the coasts, and I suspect that their habitats weren't exactly wall-to-wall cowries even before people started harvesting them. Shell money - Wikipedia

 

[Bramandin]

In the story, I think your description of the means of accounting will have much more impact than an expanation of the economics. It's a vivid image: the Blackrock miners queuing with their chops before the town clerk; the erudite Tarmin guildsmen discretely comparing their impeccably ruled ledgers. Just that says a lot about the two communities.

As to the limitations of barter: cowrie shells were used as a kind of currency across vast regions of Africa, Asia and Oceania for thousands of years, which I'm pretty sure overlapped with both barter and use of metal money. Beads and gambling markers and other kinds of shells have also been used as money in various cultures. Generally small, decorative items. It seems likely that both your settlements would use something like that for trading further afield.

Yeah, I think that this got a little bit too deep into the flesh when I'm only interested in showing the surface-level. If they used coins locally instead of it being a thing before the world went to hell the differences would be...

Well Blackrock would have two lines. One for the workers to get paid, and then another to trade the coins for standard food. Really it's an efficiency thing unless the food and coin was the same line when they "clock out." Actually that's what I imagined it is except conceptual money instead of coin. It could also be about control where it's easier to take away currency if it don't have to pry it out of their fist.

I have no idea what effect it would have on Tarmin or the story. Some things might just be flavor-text. Even just being able to run a tab indicates that they're able to have the convenience of just keeping track instead of having to hand over coins for everything.

And that’s something I’ve never understood, how it works. Most currencies are based on scarcity: gold, silver, etc. How can a currency work, if all you have to do if you’re a bit short this week is to go for a dive in the lagoon? Are cowries that rare naturally, or has the use of them as money made them artificially scarce?

“Thank you. Since we decided a few weeks ago to adopt the leaf as legal tender, we have, of course, all become immensely rich. [...]

"But we have also," continued the management consultant, "run into a small inflation problem on account of the high level of leaf availability, which means that, I gather, the current going rate has something like three deciduous forests buying on ship's peanut." [...]

"So in order to obviate this problem," he continued, "and effectively revalue the leaf, we are about to embark on a massive defoliation campaign, and...er, burn down all the forests. I think you'll all agree that's a sensible move under the circumstances.”​

― Douglas Adams, The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy