1.07: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power - The Eye

I'm not doubting you. I'm just interested.
Where is this stated?
Years of the Lamps
After Melkor's departure, the Valar managed to quiet the tumults of the world, and set about ordering it in preparation for the coming of the Elves. To give light to the world, they constructed two Great Lamps in Middle-earth and set their place of dwelling in the midst of them. During this time, Melkor re-entered Arda with the various Maiar spirits who had attuned themselves to his music, and delved a mighty fortress at the very north-most part of the World and named it Utumno.[3] To defend it he raised the Iron Mountains as a ring around the north. Decay arose in the North, and the Valar thus knew that Melkor had returned. Before they could begin to search for him however, Melkor came forth from Utumno with sudden war, and cast down the Lamps. The fire within the Lamps scorched a great portion of the world, and containing the catastrophe caused by their breaking kept the Valar occupied long enough for Melkor and his forces to retreat back to Utumno.

After the destruction of the Lamps, the Valar withdrew to the continent of Aman and there built Valinor. In doing so, however, they gave Melkor virtually free-reign in Middle-earth. As a result, the continent languished in darkness, and Melkor filled its lands with terrible creatures and decay. During this time, Melkor built his second, lesser fortress of Angband in the west, as a defense in the West should the Valar attack. Angband was delved into the Iron Mountains, and was given to Sauron to command.[4] While the Valar were unsure where the Children of Ilúvatar would awake, they were reluctant to wage war against Melkor, fearing the clash of powers might result in massive collateral damage the likes of which they had not seen since the Lamps were destroyed. As such, most of them remained in Aman and forsook Middle-earth. Due to this, Melkor discovered the Elves before the other Valar, captured many of them, and transformed them by torture and other foul craft into the first Orcs in mockery of the Elves.

Mount Doom
The Mount Doom was created by the first dark lord Melkor during the First Age.[1] During the Second Age, Sauron chose the land of Mordor as his dwelling-place. He used the fire that welled there from the heart of the earth in his sorceries and his forging. Around SA 1600, Sauron forged the One Ring in the depths of the Cracks of Doom, which was built within Mount Doom itself. In SA 3429, Mount Doom erupted, signaling Sauron's attack on Gondor, where it earned its name "Amon Amarth."[2][3][4]

After the War of the Last Alliance and Sauron's disappearance, it was dormant and only sprung into life in TA 2954 after Sauron's return to Mordor.

Shelob's early history is completely unknown, save for the assumption that she was born in the Ered Gorgoroth and that she was the "last child" of Ungoliant. By the Second Age, she often feasted on her own children, and that at some point after fleeing from Beleriand, yet long before Sauron took the land of Mordor for himself she spun a dark lair in the Ephel Dúath (Mountains of Shadow) in Cirith Ungol. For thousands of years she resided there, making a labyrinth of webs within a network of caves to better trap her prey, which included all creatures great and small. She feasted primarily on those who wandered into her webs, though if a particularly juicy morsel was available, she would silently pursue and kill it.

Shelob was there before Sauron. I missed the parts where Mount Doom went dormant. So 6000 years of activity isn't right. Melkor/Morgoth is much more complicated, but he had a big part of shaping the Middle-Earth and causing the darkness. So, Mordor has been there forever and this is what OneRing has to say about the origins.

In The Atlas of Middle-earth, Karen Wynn Fonstad assumes that the lands of Mordor and Khand lay where the inland Sea of Helcar had been, and that the Sea of Rhûn and Sea of Núrnen were its remnants. In particular, she suggested that the uplift of the Plateau of Gorgoroth was closely related to the formation of Mount Doom and that the Ephel Dúath formed as a result of a tectonic uplift caused by the cataclysms of the War of Wrath.[2][3] However, in The Peoples of Middle-earth, the 12th volume of The History of Middle-earth, that was published after the Atlas, is stated that at least Mount Doom was created by Morgoth during the First Age, so before the draining of the Sea of Helcar. Also the name Mordor was given already before Sauron settled there

Both scientific and fantasy based conclusions are at above.
 
Utumno isn't the same as Mordor, though. It was in the far north, beyond the top of the maps in LOTR and The Hobbit.
 
Years of the Lamps


Mount Doom




Shelob was there before Sauron. I missed the parts where Mount Doom went dormant. So 6000 years of activity isn't right. Melkor/Morgoth is much more complicated, but he had a big part of shaping the Middle-Earth and causing the darkness. So, Mordor has been there forever and this is what OneRing has to say about the origins.



Both scientific and fantasy based conclusions are at above.
That is excellent research, ctg.

Of course a lot of that is in material that the show doesn't have the rights to—they can't refer to it. They can't say that Morgoth made this region into a volcanic plain long, long ago, and that the region was anciently known as Mordor, but then the volcano went dormant.

(And if I am not mistaken, the region around a long dormant volcano does eventually become inhabitable again.)

But of course it is clear (they don't say so, but it must be obvious, because the whole plan depends on there being a dormant volcano right there in that particular spot) that Sauron, or whoever made the plan to destroy the Southlands—by the very way that all the different parts fit together to cause the eruption, the combination of engineering and magic, it looks to me like Sauron's mind at work—must have known the volcano was there of old. He must have been the one that instructed Adar what to do—and Adar carried out the plan for his own reasons (and the producers') but he hasn't yet turned up to claim the land, as he eventually will. First he has business that he wants to conduct with the elves, a little matter of forging some magic rings.

But I am with Eickerlyc in that I find it quite odd—though I have seen it on this site before—the way some people keep their eyes on a series they despise and in some cases go on watching it, and in others continue to read about it and comment on it long after they've been put off by watching part of it and not liking what they saw. With books or television shows, once I realize that something is definitely not for me, I personally would not want to bother myself with it further. If a book, I DNF, and if a TV show I stop watching as soon as it begins to bother me enough, which could be after fifteen minutes or a couple of seasons. I can't tell you the number of books and TV series I have done that with. I haven't the capacity for self-punishment to stick with whatever it might be after that.
 
We all know for some time, long before the premiere of this show, that Amazon Prime did not have gotten rights to all of the material. That whatever form Amazon Prime would give their show, they somehow would have to circumvent those holes in the lore they could not mention or use.
Understandably, that alienated many true fans and lovers of all that is Tolkiens's legacy. But that is how it works in our world with rights, licenses and whatnot. You cannot blame Amazon Prime, or their show, that it doesn't tell what it isn't legally allowed to tell.
To keep coming back here to accuse them of just that or how bad they are in retelling the story within the legally allotted space because blah, blah, blah, feels like trying to ruin the pleasure of those who are willing and trying to give this show a chance.
That is were these threads, dedicated to the episodes, are for. To give it a fair chance. Which, fair enough, is sometimes difficult enough. It is far from a perfect series. But whatever the verdict, much depends on the spirit in which the verdict is given.
Also, there is another thread for more general comments on this series.

PS. I sometimes feel that my English isn't good enough to express what or how I wish to communicate it, to express my thoughts in a clear way. This is one of those occasions. It falls short. But I trust it serves well enough.
 
It's not as though those of us who have enjoyed the series are blind to its faults. By our discussions here, it should be obvious that we do see and point out some of those very faults ourselves. But we also see enough that we like or that interests us that we keep on watching. (Whether or not we will still be that interested if it takes two or three years for another season to be made and released, that remains to be seen.) But it seems like there are people all over the internet who really do want to ruin it for us, if they possibly can.

And it's not as though I am unsympathetic to the purist view. (Though I maintain that some who present themselves as purists are no such thing. One of the articles I read that seemed quite scholarly and used a lot of quotations to bolster its points, quite impressed me until it mentioned "the Christ-like white elves" which is where it lost me. Because, as anyone who has read the Silmarillion and the HoME books knows, so many of the First-Age elves were cruel and selfish.) I get it. I have myself been extremely irritated, countless times, by dramatizations of beloved books. But just because I sympathize it doesn't mean that I'm going to stop watching, until and unless it does something that sufficiently outrages my own sensibilities. (And it's only got one episode left in which it might do that, and then I'll have to stop, at least for the next couple of years.)

But as for those things in ROP that contradict "canon" I still contend that since Tolkien often contradicted himself in the material that was posthumously published, there is no canon except what was published with his own approval during his lifetime. For instance, he changed his mind about details pertaining to Galadriel a number of times later in life. But a lot of what some people, people writing articles and reviews around the internet—I'm not referring to anyone here—take for Tolkien's version of Galadriel is actually Peter Jackson's version of Galadriel. After all, a lot of the article and review writers admit that they haven't ever read any of the books. They have this idea that the movie trilogy was super-faithful to the books, and it absolutely was not. (I loved it, but I was also very much aware of the many occasions when it was not at all true to the books.) I think they changed as much as the current series has—and they had the books right there, a complete, fleshed-out story, unlike what the screenwriters for ROP have, and yet they strayed a lot. Some of their original material I thought was quite weak, annoyingly so. And I remember well that many people on this very site spent a long time discussing the most obvious places where it strayed, and that some of those discussions went on for years. (They were still going on when I arrived here in 2004, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of those discussions were still active when you arrived in 2007, @ctg, and you and I might have participated in the same conversations back then.) But because people no longer discuss those things—having exhausted all there was to say on those subjects—a lot of reviewers who came to the franchise much later, are under the impression that it was all perfect, and that to stray from Jackson's interpretations is to stray from canon.

But what I will say is that the internal logic in the three movies did seem more consistent than what we are seeing in the TV series, or at least they kept us excited enough and in enough suspense, that we didn't take time to nitpick as much. (Of course that very suspense, for those of us who knew the books very well indeed, was a result of the fact that they did stray from the books, so we never knew, the first time we watched the movies, quite what might happen next. I remember expecting the Nazgûl to jump out at Frodo at any moment, in scenes where I knew from the books that they wouldn't do any such thing. But even while he was still at home, the script was already so different that I couldn't be sure of anything.)
 
But I am with Eickerlyc in that I find it quite odd—though I have seen it on this site before—the way some people keep their eyes on a series they despise and in some cases go on watching it, and in others continue to read about it and comment on it long after they've been put off by watching part of it and not liking what they saw. With books or television shows, once I realize that something is definitely not for me, I personally would not want to bother myself with it further. If a book, I DNF, and if a TV show I stop watching as soon as it begins to bother me enough, which could be after fifteen minutes or a couple of seasons. I can't tell you the number of books and TV series I have done that with. I haven't the capacity for self-punishment to stick with whatever it might be after that.
I read the comments, because they interest me, when I for one cannot understand why people don't stop talking about it. I'd be happy if all the gossip would die down and the Rings of Power would be allowed to die peacefully.

The other thing is my love for Tolkien and his world. So for me to keep up with the series, I read the reviews, the comments and watch youtube clips. But I also do research when things doesn't make sense, and I'm not afraid of putting it out.

I'm different and I know it. So why act differently?
 
d I might have participated in the same conversations back then.) But because people no longer discuss those things—having exhausted all there was to say on those subjects—a lot of reviewers who came to the franchise much later, are under the impression that it was all perfect, and that to stray from Jackson's interpretations is to stray from canon.

But what I will say is that the internal logic in the three movies did seem more consistent than what we are seeing in the TV series, or at least they kept us excited enough and in enough suspense, that we didn't take time to nitpick as much.
Like I said, I do my research when it matters. I've learned from being a milblogger and OSINT analysts for over a decade and having to defend my points. Thing is, and I said this in the Foundation thread, there are people who are purists, who don't accept everything. To them, the book is the bible. Everything else if fandom.

But in order to be able to watch these series and accept them without getting totally off ones face and not knowing what's happening, the viewer has to suspend the disbelief. To me, the biggest fault that the AMZ team has done is going against the known facts, like for example making their own version of Mordor.

If they'd have adapted the known facts and made the story to revolve around them, then it would all have been good, but they didn't, and then they went and claimed boldly that this series is the hottest thing, before anyone could claim otherwise. They were not humble. Not like many other show runners who keep quiet before the reviews are in.

AppleTV All for Mankind had no PR. They had one big name, Ronald D Moore, the guy who made the new BSG. It was all they needed, and it took them to go from 0 to having 100k subscribers over three years. It is their original IP, and they've worked hard for it.

The Rings of Power doesn't show hard work, at all. Thing is, like with Raised by Wolves, they have their second season and two years of time to make it work. If they want this to succeed, they have to work very hard to make it happen. For this season, they only have one episode left, and I don't think it'll bring anything other than what've seen before.
 
The other thing is my love for Tolkien and his world. So for me to keep up with the series, I read the reviews, the comments and watch youtube clips. But I also do research when things doesn't make sense, and I'm not afraid of putting it out.
Oh, I totally understand that, and as I said, I have some sympathy.

But there are a lot of people commenting around the internet who didn't read The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings even once, much less Tolkien's other, related writings. They don't care about Tolkien as you do.
 
Oh, I totally understand that, and as I said, I have some sympathy.

But there are a lot of people commenting around the internet who didn't read The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings even once, much less Tolkien's other, related writings. They don't care about Tolkien as you do.
Well, that's their problem, lol. But I know that a lot of people read these threads, even the numbers don't show them. So it's a slow influence, and you'll have to back your claims with science/research for it work. If AMZ reads these threads, then they have the evidence, the opinions, reactions, research and everything else to make their product better.
 
We cross-posted.

Oh, I think there was a lot of hard work—certainly by the costumers and actors and scenic designers and people like them—and even on the part of the producers, but I also think that at some point they were so deeply into it that they allowed their imaginations to run a little wild. And if I ever see a dramatization of a book that doesn't do at least some of that, I will let you know. Right now, it's 0 out of however many book adaptions I have seen in my lifetime.

But I have to disagree with you about science. Tolkien was not a big fan (to say the least) of science, and he often disregarded it in his writings.
 
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Tolkien was not a big fan (to say the least) of science, and he often disregarded it in his writings.
Sadly true -- I picked up another case in The Two Towers last night of "flat-earthing". But he does always get how the moon phases work, and that's something you can't take for granted with authors.

He is also (as you said) sometimes inconsistent with his own lore. For example, Gandalf's description of his battle with the balrog tells how the roots of the Misty Mountains are "gnawed by nameless things", which Sauron doesn't know the names of because they are "older than he". Clearly impossible, as Gandalf would know. But easily forgivable because of the thrill of untold secrets it suggests.
 
I read the comments, because they interest me, when I for one cannot understand why people don't stop talking about it. I'd be happy if all the gossip would die down and the Rings of Power would be allowed to die peacefully.
(Bold highlighting by me.)

This here is the issue. You want it to die.
You are actively trying with your comments (excuse me, I mean of course 'gossip') to shut us up and in stead torpedo the series. You can, in your own words, not understand why people (people who post in this thread, I assume, and are so bold or utterly stupid to write synopsis's.) do not have the sense to stop talking about it. This attitude is what the haters (sorry, I really cannot name it anything else when you want something to die) is what keeps them posting here and hinting at the bad points and other reviews that are 'great' but only because they express your own views.
You want to to die. We want it to live, learn from their faults, do better and try harder in season two.
If you want it to die, than stop 'gossiping' about it yourself. We can muddle on quite well without your help of that of other haters.
 
Should I say the same thing to all the people who come in other treads to show their "hate" and "disappointment"? I don't do that, even though it's annoying. All voices are equal, even those that shows their disappointment.
 
Sadly true -- I picked up another case in The Two Towers last night of "flat-earthing". But he does always get how the moon phases work, and that's something you can't take for granted with authors.

Hey. Sorry to jump in on a conversation but you said Flat Earth and it reminded me. I am not a hardcore Tolkeian so some of you guys may know the truth of this better than I.

I was told, and am now of the understanding, that the reason Elves can see further then humans is because they were created when the world was flat and therefore the world is still flat to them. Therefore the are not hindered by the horizon. Humans were created when the world was round and therefore cannot see as far due to the curve.

Is this a 'fact' or a fan theory.

Enjoying TROP by the way. Some of the dialogue is a bit clunky but its enjoyable.
 
I was told, and am now of the understanding, that the reason Elves can see further then humans is because they were created when the world was flat and therefore the world is still flat to them. Therefore the are not hindered by the horizon. Humans were created when the world was round and therefore cannot see as far due to the curve.

Is this a 'fact' or a fan theory.
I've never heard that before. Did your source justify it with reference to anything Tolkien wrote? Without that backup, I'd be more of the opinion that he just wasn't aware of the limitations of viewing distance on a globe, rather than elvish eyes bending light or whatever. It's quite a neat idea though.
 
It is kind of a neat theory. I like it. However, the world was not remade as globe until long after humans awoke in Middle-Earth, so I am afraid it is just a fan theory.
 
I was told, and am now of the understanding, that the reason Elves can see further then humans is because they were created when the world was flat and therefore the world is still flat to them. Therefore the are not hindered by the horizon. Humans were created when the world was round and therefore cannot see as far due to the curve.

In fact, Men were born fairly early in the First age, long before the world was made round, which is something that occurred at the end of the second age (and therefore presumably at the end of the last series of this programme.)
It may be something of a spoiler to tell you why the world was bent, but essentially it was to stop men from going to Valinor, which is where the Valar and also many Elves live.
There is apparently still a straight (or flat, if you like) path, which the Elves (*) can take from Middle-Earth to get to Valinor. (* And occasionally others, such as Bilbo and Frodo)

So, in these programmes the world is still flat, and this can't be the reason why the Elves see further. It also means that questions of sight being restricted by the curvature of the earth do not apply.
 

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