Dystopia or Utopia

[paranoid marvin]

I wonder for how many people the city of San Angeles, circa 2032, as depicted in Demolition Man would be a good place to live? No swearing, no littering, no violence, (virtually) no crime and the 3 seashells. On the other hand no sports, no meat, no alcohol and an overbearing surveillance state.

It's the ultimate parody of 1984, except instead of beaten, citizens are being hugged to death.

I'd be interested in other people's opinion on this, and other examples of states/communities that could be seen as ideal (or not) depending on the individual's viewpoint.

 

[BAYLOR]

I wonder for how many people the city of San Angeles, circa 2032, as depicted in Demolition Man would be a good place to live? No swearing, no littering, no violence, (virtually) no crime and the 3 seashells. On the other hand no sports, no meat, no alcohol and an overbearing surveillance state.

It's the ultimate parody of 1984, except instead of beaten, citizens are being hugged to death.

I'd be interested in other people's opinion on this, and other examples of states/communities that could be seen as ideal (or not) depending on the individual's viewpoint.

And no books and literature that might offend. In it's own way , it would be Hell on Earth.

 

[Rodders]

Logan's Run.

30 years of play and no responsibility and at the end, you're reincarnated by way of fiery destruction on the carousel. (isn't that what they told everyone?) Anyone wanting to escape this paradise is hunted and killed by Sandmen.

A great movie based on the books by William F. Nolan and George Clayton Johnson. I loved the movie, but i've not read the book. I think that the movie deserves a remake.

 

[Swank]

I wonder for how many people the city of San Angeles, circa 2032, as depicted in Demolition Man would be a good place to live? No swearing, no littering, no violence, (virtually) no crime and the 3 seashells. On the other hand no sports, no meat, no alcohol and an overbearing surveillance state.

It's the ultimate parody of 1984, except instead of beaten, citizens are being hugged to death.

I'd be interested in other people's opinion on this, and other examples of states/communities that could be seen as ideal (or not) depending on the individual's viewpoint.

We already live in a world that is along the same lines as Demolition Man. Public broadcast is censored. Extreme behavior is criminalized. People feel that the government should protect them from violent individuals. Sports that have been found to be excessively dangerous have been modified or banned altogether. Many common recreational drugs are banned or strictly controlled who can buy/make/imbibe them. The government checks your taxes, monitors your income, surveils your driving.

And all that isn't a bad thing. It's called civilization, and most of us prefer it to having to rely on self defense or walled family compounds for a semblance of stability. Demolition Man calls into question "where's the line?" I might see meat banned in my lifetime - and maybe that's okay. And maybe all the CTE sports need to go away. In the UK the weapon laws are so extreme that a tiny pocketknife is illegal to carry if it has a safety lock. Clearly that didn't lead to a popular uprising.

 

[BAYLOR]

Logan's Run.

30 years of play and no responsibility and at the end, you're reincarnated by way of fiery destruction on the carousel. (isn't that what they told everyone?) Anyone wanting to escape this paradise is hunted and killed by Sandmen.

A great movie based on the books by William F. Nolan and George Clayton Johnson. I loved the movie, but i've not read the book. I think that the movie deserves a remake.

The movie differed significantly from the book .

 

[Rodders]

Sorry Swank, i misunderstood the assignment. I thought you were looking for other examples of a Dystopian society masked in a Utopian one.

It's been a while since i saw Demolition Man, but i remember the Police seemed essentially powerless and didn't understand how to respond by the new threat of violence. I think modern Policing appears to be going down this road.

 

[Swank]

Sorry Swank,

Marvin is the OP.

 

[Toby Frost]

Brave New World feels like a good example. Ira Levin wrote a novel about a non-malicious surveillance state called This Fine Day - I've not read it, but it sounds as if it would tick the boxes. Personally, I find the idea a bit unlikely, as the main reason for seizing power seems to be to indulge your base and violent urges in the name of some political or religious faith, but I suppose a computer-controlled society could be like this.

 

[BAYLOR]

Brave New World feels like a good example. Ira Levin wrote a novel about a non-malicious surveillance state called This Fine Day - I've not read it, but it sounds as if it would tick the boxes. Personally, I find the idea a bit unlikely, as the main reason for seizing power seems to be to indulge your base and violent urges in the name of some political or religious faith, but I suppose a computer-controlled society could be like this.

The End Bringers by Douglas Mason takes much darker spin on what a machine controlled society could be like.

 

[Toby Frost]

Would "The Machine Stops" count?

 

[BAYLOR]

Would "The Machine Stops" count?

I would never have heard of this short story by E M Forester hadn't caught of clip of of the series Out of the Unknown on YouTube .

This one goes on the Dystopia side of the equation.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Sorry Swank, i misunderstood the assignment. I thought you were looking for other examples of a Dystopian society masked in a Utopian one.

It's been a while since i saw Demolition Man, but i remember the Police seemed essentially powerless and didn't understand how to respond by the new threat of violence. I think modern Policing appears to be going down this road.

Hi, I did mean this, and also different people's perceptions of what makes a utopia or a dystopia..

One of the reasons why the police are so ineffective here is that they have no crime to contend with. It's only when someone (literally) from another time, who hasn't been 'conditioned' yet, appears and starts committing acts that they have no idea how to respond to.

I think for some people a crimeless society, with no littering and no swearing would be a Utopia, and they would accept the downsides that went with it.

Your example of Logan's Run is a good one. Plenty to eat and drink, no worries, no cares and a (relatively) luxurious lifestyle safe from the harsh realities of the outside world. From what I remember, at 30 you weren't killed, you were sent to be reincarnated, and to start the whole process again. If you didn't doubt the truth of that, a continuous existence of youth, health and happiness could be seen as a Utopia.

Another example is Fahrenheit 451. What seems like a prosperous society, with the advancement of technology meaning that there is little need for reading , and more concentration on film, sports and interactive tv. The downside being that books, and the time for free thinking is slowly eradicated before being prohibited. A dystopia if ever there was one for a society such as ourselves, but perhaps not for everyone.

 

[paranoid marvin]

We already live in a world that is along the same lines as Demolition Man. Public broadcast is censored. Extreme behavior is criminalized. People feel that the government should protect them from violent individuals. Sports that have been found to be excessively dangerous have been modified or banned altogether. Many common recreational drugs are banned or strictly controlled who can buy/make/imbibe them. The government checks your taxes, monitors your income, surveils your driving.

And all that isn't a bad thing. It's called civilization, and most of us prefer it to having to rely on self defense or walled family compounds for a semblance of stability. Demolition Man calls into question "where's the line?" I might see meat banned in my lifetime - and maybe that's okay. And maybe all the CTE sports need to go away. In the UK the weapon laws are so extreme that a tiny pocketknife is illegal to carry if it has a safety lock. Clearly that didn't lead to a popular uprising.

I think we have to be careful with regards to what is allowable on this forum in relation to politics and current events etc. but I agree that there is a fine line between being protected and being over-protected.

Demolition Man is more about what one man (Nigel Hawthorne's character) thinks is the right and proper way to live, and the way in which the community conforms to this. There are many aspects of San Angeles that make it a utopia; who wouldn't want to live in a crimeless society, where everyone is nice to each other? Is it worth sacrificing alcohol, meat, violent sport (things, however much we may enjoy them, that are bad for us) to live in such a society? Though there is a darker side to the story with the 'Scraps' living underground being to some extent excluded and even domineered by the conformists above grounmd. You could well see the beginnings of the Eloi and Morlocks in this relationship.

Although Demolition Man is a fun action movie, with some really funny, action packed stuff in it, it's also quite a deep thinking film at times. There's another thread about some of the greatest monologues in movies; Edgar Friendly's speech about freedom of choice is definitely up there (although not forum friendly).

 

[AllanR]

With Folded Hands (Williamson) shows the beginning of a dystopia via utopia.

 

[BAYLOR]

With Folded Hands (Williamson) shows the beginning of a dystopia via utopia.

There's no question that Jack Williamson's The Humanoids runs both to both those spectrums.

 

[Wayne Mack]

Perhaps the answer is Dystopia and Utopia.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Perhaps the answer is Dystopia and Utopia.

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times?

 

[BAYLOR]

Brave New World by Aldous Huxley Your entire life is mapped out even before you're even born, Inidciadual and crucial thinking is frowned upon , No families or marriage or deep serious relationships of any type , free love that really isn't love at all. , the wide availability of Soma , drug which see you artificially happy ., Books with provocative ideas and stories ., all of the classic are banned have dumbed down beyond intelligible recognition . Mass entertainment that is inane and made harmless of the god of the public. Then there world controller who have access to everything forbidden and do think and see nothing wrong with the world they have made.

Yeah, this one is clearly a Dystopia and , in its own way is every bit as repulsive as George Orwell's 1984.

 

[Astro Pen]

I have the view that dystopia, for all the work you need to survive in it, is better than a 'utopia', which will always be prescribed by someone else.
It comes down, simply, to opportunities for self realisation. In 'utopias' they don't exist, there is only conformity.
All supposed utopias are totalitarian and crush individuality. They can't help themselves and can go nowhere good.

 

[Swank]

I have the view that dystopia, for all the work you need to survive in it, is better than a 'utopia', which will always be prescribed by someone else.
It comes down, simply, to opportunities for self realisation. In 'utopias' they don't exist, there is only conformity.
All supposed utopias are totalitarian and crush individuality. They can't help themselves and can go nowhere good.

It sounds like you are redefining "utopia" as something else than the term normally denotes. Why would something like Banks' Culture (a post scarcity utopia) prevent self realization or demand conformity?