Dystopia or Utopia

[SilentRoamer]

One mans Dystopian nightmare is another mans Utopian Dream.

Put it this way - I would rather be underground eating rat burgers with some freedom than above ground in a gilded cage.

 

[Cthulhu.Science]

I think we have to be careful with regards to what is allowable on this forum in relation to politics and current events etc. but I agree that there is a fine line between being protected and being over-protected.

Is there a bit of irony in this statement on this specific topic?
Not that paranoid marvin is wrong, this is not the site for politics, but still...

 

[Swank]

One mans Dystopian nightmare is another mans Utopian Dream.

Put it this way - I would rather be underground eating rat burgers with some freedom than above ground in a gilded cage.

What cage? Where does this belief that utopias can only exist under restrictive control come from? There's never been a utopia.

 

[paranoid marvin]

What cage? Where does this belief that utopias can only exist under restrictive control come from? There's never been a utopia.

I think that utopias can only exist in the minds of individuals or small groups, and the only way to sustain one is to enforce it.

 

[Swank]

I think that utopias can only exist in the minds of individuals or small groups, and the only way to sustain one is to enforce it.

"Utopia" is just a society where everyone is free to do largely as they please and have a high standard of living regardless of how they spend their time. I would agree that attempts in history to have a utopia are just mass hypnosis, not actual free and rich societies. They're communes.

There is going to be a time, not so incredibly distant from now, where technology allows people to make their own stuff, there's plenty of space to live, personal security will be near absolute and illness or even aging have been cured. You can call living like that whatever you want, but it isn't socialism, capitalism, authoritarianism, patriarchy or any of the other systemic causes of disparity that put people in conflict and despair. Certainly, some people will try to F it up for everyone else, but with less shared infrastructure, no real economy and real physical security, those people won't get very far.

 

[Cthulhu.Science]

"Utopia" is just a society where everyone is free to do largely as they please and have a high standard of living regardless of how they spend their time. I would agree that attempts in history to have a utopia are just mass hypnosis, not actual free and rich societies. They're communes.

There is going to be a time, not so incredibly distant from now, where technology allows people to make their own stuff, there's plenty of space to live, personal security will be near absolute and illness or even aging have been cured. You can call living like that whatever you want, but it isn't socialism, capitalism, authoritarianism, patriarchy or any of the other systemic causes of disparity that put people in conflict and despair. Certainly, some people will try to F it up for everyone else, but with less shared infrastructure, no real economy and real physical security, those people won't get very far.

That sounds like a really great setup for a sci-fi novel. Like Brave New World.

I don't think that the small group of people who own or control 90% of all wealth in Human society today are going to give up that control in the near future.

There are places now that meet your list above - Iceland, Qatar (for the 5% of the population that are citizens), maybe Bhutan qualifies in its own way. But the wealthiest countries are not heading in that direction. Not the US, China, Japan, Russia, India, Germany, UK -- None of these countries is heading in that direction. You have to look to very small countries, and even then...

Even fictional Star Trek required a complete obliteration of society to build its Utopia.

 

[Swank]

That sounds like a really great setup for a sci-fi novel. Like Brave New World.

I don't think that the small group of people who own or control 90% of all wealth in Human society today are going to give up that control in the near future.

There are places now that meet your list above - Iceland, Qatar (for the 5% of the population that are citizens), maybe Bhutan qualifies in its own way. But the wealthiest countries are not heading in that direction. Not the US, China, Japan, Russia, India, Germany, UK -- None of these countries is heading in that direction. You have to look to very small countries, and even then...

Even fictional Star Trek required a complete obliteration of society to build its Utopia.

It isn't a direction or a public policy. The internet and social media weren't a direction rich people decided to take us. They were technologies that essentially got away from the corporations and took shape from public use.

Star Trek is frankly about the least realistic vision of the future of any popular sci fi.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Utopia means different things to different people. The original Utopia was from Thomas More's mind, of a community that had fair laws, a good ruler and citizens that worked for the common good. But no pubs, the whole community must eat together, private gatherings are forbidden and slavery is a way of life, with criminals becoming slaves as well as defeated enemies.

This was his idea of what a perfect society was, but to most people today (as it would have been to most back then) it was far from what would be seen as an idealised way of living.

Then again 'utopia' actually translates as 'nowhere', so suggests that it is an impossible achievement to get everyone to believe in the same things. It might work in a small community such as a monastery (many of More's ideas of a Utopia are reminiscent of a monastic lifestyle) but humans being what they are tend to have differing opinions on how things ought to be.

 

[paranoid marvin]

It isn't a direction or a public policy. The internet and social media weren't a direction rich people decided to take us. They were technologies that essentially got away from the corporations and took shape from public use.

Star Trek is frankly about the least realistic vision of the future of any popular sci fi.

I think that Star Trek was intended as an allegory of contemporary issues in the USA. It's stories, and the situations in which characters are put speak far more about how things are now than what things will be like in the future.

 

[Harpo]

I’ve just discovered a rabbithole of Utopia City memes

As with all such things, they can be made to say any old thing

 

[Extollager]

I wonder for how many people the city of San Angeles, circa 2032, as depicted in Demolition Man would be a good place to live? No swearing, no littering, no violence, (virtually) no crime and the 3 seashells. On the other hand no sports, no meat, no alcohol and an overbearing surveillance state.

It's the ultimate parody of 1984, except instead of beaten, citizens are being hugged to death.

I'd be interested in other people's opinion on this, and other examples of states/communities that could be seen as ideal (or not) depending on the individual's viewpoint.

In the 1960s TV series The Prisoner, most of the residents of The Village seem to be content. How much that is the result of conditioning, even of brutal treatment, we don't know, but it seems arrivals there generally settle into their new life. How much the series presents this scenario for dramatic reasons only and how much the creators actually thought people really would act and feel that way, I don't know.

Freedom to travel and have adventures seems to be a big thing with a lot of people in their thirties or so. The Villages doesn't have freedom to travel outside its boundaries. It isn't diverse. So those could be two things that would put off a lot of people.

 

[paeng]

This reminds me of Asimov's short story "The Last Question".

 

[paeng]

The End of Science as a Useful Tool

Despite the rapid roll-out of seemingly newer and shinier than ever technologies, something seems to be amiss with science. The symptoms however — like a radical fall in new discoveries, the rise of flat earth theories, burgeoning bureaucracies, the politicization of results — are just that...

thehonestsorcerer.substack.com

 

[Cthulhu.Science]

One mans Dystopian nightmare is another mans Utopian Dream.

Put it this way - I would rather be underground eating rat burgers with some freedom than above ground in a gilded cage.

One of the fun elements of Demolition Man is that a couple of the prominent exterior scenes were shot on location in The City of Irvine, California, the ultimate planned city between LA and San Diego. The ultimate planned Utopia / Dystopia depending on who you ask.

Demolition Man Film Locations throughout San-Angeles

 

[BAYLOR]

I think that Star Trek was intended as an allegory of contemporary issues in the USA. It's stories, and the situations in which characters are put speak far more about how things are now than what things will be like in the future.

The Return of Archons. I was found that nightmarish vision of Utopia/Dystopia to be interesting.