Is it a bad idea to use un-linguistic-ly sound names in fantasy.

[Teresa Edgerton]

The author won't drop by anytime soon to sternly correct my unintended maiming of a character's name

Exactly. I make a similar point in the pronunciation guide in the ebooks I am currently preparing for re-issue. I don' t care how people pronounce the names. The guide to pronunciation is only there for readers who find the inclusion of such a thing interesting and/or reassuring. Anyone else can easily ignore it. (There will not be a test!)

I will also point out that ordinary English names are mangled all the time by native English speakers. It happens with my own last name, which is of English origin and pronounced phonetically (unlike many English names of people and places). People drop letters, add in extra letters, stumble over the whole thing. If I went around being annoyed and correcting people who I will probably never meet again-- rather than simply being amused--what a waste of my time that would be!

 

[The Big Peat]

The counterpoint to that is readers can't control their "hang on" reactions and once they're outside the story staring at something - be it a name they don't like as much as a piece of professional expertise they know to be wrong or a character reaction that rings false - they're going to have a rough old time getting back in.

 

[hvoad]

I think it all comes down to the execution. But I do notice that when I encounter weird names in fantasy, I'm not really able to retain them perfectly. Like when I see the actual name come up, I'll recognize it. Otherwise, I can't, for the life of me, recall it.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

That's actually one of the advantages of using names that are close to common names. A long, long, long time ago when I was doing psych, one of the predominant theories about our interactions with the world at large was that we see it in terms of stereotypes. We also hear it and understand it in them. So if you give a character a name like Dafyth a hell of a lot of your readers not having come across that name before are going to read it as David. Which works in the story's favor - because David is a name they could remember and identify with. If your character is named Ar'will'ada or something that's a name they won't be able to sort of make familiar to themselves, identify with, or remember.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Elrond, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Aragon, Smaug: part of the reason why JRR and his work is so beloved is because of its accessibility. He proved that it is quite possible to make names sound both familiar and fantastical; easy to read, pronounce and recall.

But I agree with an above comment that the author also has to be content when naming their characters. If you are someone who thinks that Drizzt Do'Urden is an appropriate name for your protagonist, and you simplify it for the benefit of your readers, you risk alienating yourself from them.

 

[Elckerlyc]

That's actually one of the advantages of using names that are close to common names.

What are common names? What's common to you isn't necessarily common to someone else. Sure, many people are familiar with English names, but they may still be foreign to them. Gregory or Gwen may be common, but not where I live. Should these names be translated so I can read Gerrit and Grietje in stead and not feel annoyed by an author using names I have difficulty with to remember let alone correctly pronounce? As if that matters.

The counterpoint to that is readers can't control their "hang on" reactions... ...be it a name they don't like...

This is entirely their responsibility and imho their shortcoming, not something that should constrain the author. The author should be - no, is expected to be - creative to (in all freedom) think of an entertaining story, complete with suitable names. One should like to expect some lenience of the reader to cope with that. If not, their bad luck. You simply can't please everyone.

Elrond, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Aragon, Smaug: part of the reason why JRR and his work is so beloved is because of its accessibility. He proved that it is quite possible to make names sound both familiar and fantastical; easy to read, pronounce and recall.

Excellent example. I think, in reality, that most names in every day life are reduced to short calling names that are easy to shout and remember. An alien with the name Drizzt Do'Urden will probably called Drizzle.

 

[Fiberglass Cyborg]

Worth mentioning that Drizzt Do'Urden is not a hypothetical example, he's one of the most popular characters in the entire D&D fictional universe! Gets mispelled a bit, but most Forgotten Realms fans come out with a decent approximation. Plus, anime / manga fans in the West happily get to grips with some very unfamiliar Japanese names.

 

[The Big Peat]

This is entirely their responsibility and imho their shortcoming, not something that should constrain the author. The author should be - no, is expected to be - creative to (in all freedom) think of an entertaining story, complete with suitable names. One should like to expect some lenience of the reader to cope with that. If not, their bad luck. You simply can't please everyone.

Their shortcoming? Goodness, that comes across as quite sanctimonious.

And here's the thing about it being the reader's bad luck - is it? They can just walk away. They lose very little for doing so. There's a stupendous amount of fiction available with a stupendous amount published every year. They will never read everything they want to anyway, so what does it matter if they strike some books off their list for small but impactful reasons?

If you want to make the point that's a luxury that exists for Anglosphere readers... then, yes, you are correct. But when one has a luxury, one should use it.

Readers don't owe writers their lenience. Readers owe writers next door to nothing. If they are handing over money and time to read the outpourings of someone's ego, their side of the ledger is pretty much full. It is up to the writer to persuade the reader to grant them whatever lenience is required. That is what I believe to be the case morally, and also what happens to be the case practically speaking. People can go on until they're blue in the face about how readers approach fiction but every reader is sovereign over their own decisions. They can be as petty and capricious as they want.

Now, as I've posted before, I'm a big believer as a writer that it is indeed impossible to please everyone and on such things as this, one shouldn't get too concerned about pleasing as many people as possible as it's a waste of time that could be spent on the most important tasks.

But as a reader? I've put down books before for their naming conventions and will do so again. That's mostly for leaning on a culture for names then not following the culture's conventions but I reserve my right to do for other annoying annoying naming conventions.

 

[Elckerlyc]

Their shortcoming? Goodness, that comes across as quite sanctimonious.

And here's the thing about it being the reader's bad luck - is it? They can just walk away. They lose very little for doing so. There's a stupendous amount of fiction available with a stupendous amount published every year. They will never read everything they want to anyway, so what does it matter if they strike some books off their list for small but impactful reasons?

If you want to make the point that's a luxury that exists for Anglosphere readers... then, yes, you are correct. But when one has a luxury, one should use it.

Readers don't owe writers their lenience. Readers owe writers next door to nothing. If they are handing over money and time to read the outpourings of someone's ego, their side of the ledger is pretty much full. It is up to the writer to persuade the reader to grant them whatever lenience is required. That is what I believe to be the case morally, and also what happens to be the case practically speaking. People can go on until they're blue in the face about how readers approach fiction but every reader is sovereign over their own decisions. They can be as petty and capricious as they want.

Now, as I've posted before, I'm a big believer as a writer that it is indeed impossible to please everyone and on such things as this, one shouldn't get too concerned about pleasing as many people as possible as it's a waste of time that could be spent on the most important tasks.

But as a reader? I've put down books before for their naming conventions and will do so again. That's mostly for leaning on a culture for names then not following the culture's conventions but I reserve my right to do for other annoying annoying naming conventions.

My apologies if it came across as sanctimonious. It was not intended as such. 'Shortcoming' wasn't the correct word (but used for lack of an other). When you discard a perfectly readable book, because you find the names unreadable or unpronounceable, you do yourself short. Unnecessarily, I feel. Is it really so difficult to deal with - in the readers eye - weird names in a book?
But yes, you are perfectly right, every reader has the right to declare any book as a DNF for such or whatever reasons.

If you want to make the point that's a luxury that exists for Anglosphere readers... then, yes, you are correct. But when one has a luxury, one should use it.

Sigh. It bothers me you call that a luxury. Making a problem of unfamiliar names and refusing to take that in your stride, that is not a luxury.

Anyway, I better stop this discussion, because - as someone from outside the Anglosphere, who has to deal with foreign names every day of his life, as so many other people do as well - this inflexible (to substitute 'shortcoming') attitude towards strange names pains me.

 

[THX1138]

Plus, anime / manga fans in the West happily get to grips with some very unfamiliar Japanese names.

Like if a character's name is 'Go' and they are of European descent as opposed to an Asian character by the same name. One means to Proceed forward and the other means the number 5. Knowing this can change the readers understanding of the character.

 

[The Big Peat]

My apologies if it came across as sanctimonious. It was not intended as such. 'Shortcoming' wasn't the correct word (but used for lack of an other). When you discard a perfectly readable book, because you find the names unreadable or unpronounceable, you do yourself short. Unnecessarily, I feel. Is it really so difficult to deal with - in the readers eye - weird names in a book?
But yes, you are perfectly right, every reader has the right to declare any book as a DNF for such or whatever reasons.

Apology accepted, and my apologies if I came off over-strong in response.

As for it being so difficult...

The list of stuff some readers find difficult is really long and weird. I really struggle with first person present. No rational reason. But it take a book from perfectly readable to unreadable most of the time. Plenty of people don't, find that weird... but that's how it is for me. I don't get the people who won't read non-finished series but they're out there, and I guess it's a big thing from them and so on.

Names? I'm 99% happy to roll with it. But I can get how other people are different. How it can be a dealbreaker. Or it can be something that doesn't break the deal, but makes them roll their eyes about a book 20 years later.

Sigh. It bothers me you call that a luxury. Making a problem of unfamiliar names and refusing to take that in your stride, that is not a luxury.

Anyway, I better stop this discussion, because - as someone from outside the Anglosphere, who has to deal with foreign names every day of his life, as so many other people do as well - this inflexible (to substitute 'shortcoming') attitude towards strange names pains me.

I can get that. I'm aware it's different. But I would point out that for most people in the Anglosphere, we're dealing with non-Anglosphere names every day of our lives. I didn't know how to pronounce the names of some of the people I worked with in London until they said. I struggle with pronouncing Monongahela, which is one of the local rivers to where I live now. Hell, I struggle with the names of some of the whiskies I drink. And so on. I think the amount of places in the Anglosphere that are solely English are very small.

It's not that we can't cope with strange names. It's that our fiction choice is sufficiently huge that we can be very picky with it, and there's nothing of having to deal with a second language with that. That's the luxury.

 

[sknox]

Here's another angle on all this, probably of more relevance to authors than readers: audiobooks.

How your characters' names are pronounced can be inferred by the narrator, or they might ask you directly for audio files so they can get it right. But the nuance not present in text is having names that *sound* too similar. This goes beyond having the same starting sound. If Meterrand and Nellerand are too often in the same scene, it starts to sound a little ridiculous. You start watching for things like unintentional rhymes.

Writing is hard. Think I'll quit.

There, just did; now I'm back at it.

 

[Swank]

On the subject of "common names", it is fun to go to old cemeteries - especially in the US. The founder of the National Weather service was Increase Lapham. After a lot of the 20th century being somewhat conventional name wise, we are back to inventing new first names.

So just how hard is it for readers to accept a fictional name when they are commonly learning new names in the real world?

 

[Elckerlyc]

The list of stuff some readers find difficult is really long and weird. I really struggle with first person present. No rational reason.

Oh, personal preferences I can understand. I myself prefer first person books, because it makes it easier for me to identify with the protagonist. It is also how we as persons experience the world. I struggle more with omniscience narrators (which imho clashes with realism) and a sh*tload of characters you are forced to switch to and fro at moments you're just wholly engaged by the ongoing action.
Haven't read many present tense books, so can't honestly judge that.

Hell, I struggle with the names of some of the whiskies I drink.

I can understand how that could be problematic. Especially if you need it to get some pronunciations right.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Until I read the appendix of LOTR, I pronounced Sauron as Sore- ron. After reading the appendix (which in this case adds an awful lot to the actual story) and seeing JRR's notes on pronunciations, I could only read it as  Sour-ron.

I do wonder how many other pronunciations of fictional names/places etc. I have differently to what the author intended.

 

[Vertigo]

I don't really care if I have a name pronunciation the same or even close to the intended pronunciation of the author. That is not the issue for me, it's when I can't really get any concept at all of how to pronounce the name based on the mix of consonants and apostrophes in the text. That is what pulls me out of the story and interrupts the flow. ~And that is what will stop me from continuing with the story.

For example take @Teresa Edgerton's name. It's not difficult to construct a 'valid' pronunciation for Edgerton, it might not be the 'correct' one, as Teresa suggests is common, but it's easy enough to come up with a good enough one so that it doesn't interrupt my focus if used in a story.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I think it depends, in large part, how one was taught to read in the first place. When I was learning to read, we were taught to recognize a word by sight, and spent almost no time at all on phonics. I think it is probably a lousy way to learn how to read, but it was the prevailing theory at the time, so I was stuck with it. (By the time I was in junior high we did have a unit on phonics, as I guess the theory had changed, but since I was by that time an avid reader who raced through books, I wasn't about to start slowing down and sounding everything out. And I think for the kids who did have problems reading at that age, it was a great deal of too little too late.) As a result, I instinctively react to the way a name looks on the page, aesthetically, you might say, and often choose names according to what looks attractive to me.

And I think that this relates to how some people, people—I am guessing—who were not taught to sight read, can be taken out of a story when confused about how to pronounce a name, because they somehow feel they ought to pronounce it correctly and are frustrated because they can't ... whereas I, as a reader, and I believe many others like me, record the look of the word or a name in my mind, associate it with who or whatever it's supposed to be associated with, but feel no particular requirement to pronounce it correctly, or even ... well, at all, unless I am reading out loud, which since my children grew up, some decades ago, is almost never.

(This seems at odds with the fact that I am one of those people who keeps up a running internal monologue in my mind at times when I'm not reading or listening to someone or something else—but there it is. I think about the sound of words when I am thinking, but not when I am reading or writing. )

 

[KiraAnn]

I think it depends, in large part, how one was taught to read in the first place. When I was learning to read, we were taught to recognize a word by sight, and spent almost no time at all on phonics. I think it is probably a lousy way to learn how to read, but it was the prevailing theory at the time, so I was stuck with it. (By the time I was in junior high we did have a unit on phonics, as I guess the theory had changed, but since I was by that time an avid reader who raced through books, I wasn't about to start slowing down and sounding everything out. And I think for the kids who did have problems reading at that age, it was a great deal of too little too late.) As a result, I instinctively react to the way a name looks on the page, aesthetically, you might say, and often choose names according to what looks attractive to me.

Recognizing words by sight is often the only way to get them right. Phonetics is alarmingly incorrect many times, particularly when a non-English word is adopted.

Example: as a child, I lived in the New Mexico town of Shiprock. Pronounced as you would expect. About 20 miles west, in Arizona, is the town of Teec-Nos-Pos. I leave it to you to figure out the pronunciation.

 

[Snicklefritz]

It's repeatedly running into and being brought to a dead stop by encounters like this from a book I'm currently reading that cause me to decide it's not worth the candle.
"The doors hissed open; half the Teixcalaanlitzlim exited."
Come on, author. Cut me a break.

 

[Swank]

It's repeatedly running into and being brought to a dead stop by encounters like this from a book I'm currently reading that cause me to decide it's not worth the candle.
"The doors hissed open; half the Teixcalaanlitzlim exited."
Come on, author. Cut me a break.

The hissing door thing bothers me at well.