Agent Meeting Experience

Rufus Coppertop said:
What are 'comps'?
Is it where you state that your story is like "Enid Blyton meets HP Lovecraft" or something along those lines?
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Yes. Doesn't have to be "X meets Y", can be "aimed at readers of X, Y and Z". Ideally these should be recent publishing successes.

(I'm not sure what "comps" is short for. I'm sure I've seen "comparators" used, but that's an electronics device.)
 
I just found something about "10 easy ways to put an agent off" which makes sense of comps.

It seems that agents want you to know what books yours might sit next to on the shelves of a bookshop. They don't necessarily expect you to have read all of its potential neighbours.

 
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As a bookseller, I now understand comps so much better. Instead of focusing on the title, think of who reads it, and who you think might read your work. That's who you are selling to, the cross over readership. So, Sparrow by James Hynes isn't that like A little Life - it's historical fiction, for a start, where one is contemporary. But readers who like a deeply human story, with a bit of work in the reading of it, and a fair bit of angst for the main character, will like both. So the comparison is one to the other, even though the type of book isn't exactly the same.
 
Rufus Coppertop said:
What are 'comps'?
Is it where you state that your story is like "Enid Blyton meets HP Lovecraft" or something along those lines?
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Exactly. It's a way to call out and define the audience. Some agent queries ask for comps (comparable books) as well as specific market segments and/or books that explore similar themes/ideas/characters--and while there's significant overlap, there's also distinct areas.

So, for example:
  • Comps
    • Empire of Silence/Sun Eater
    • A Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet
    • Says: Good selling books with series potential. Probably space opera with exploration, cozy themes and cosmic horror
  • Market:
    • Men 18-40, 41-65
    • Women 18-40, 41-65
    • Says: This is targeted at New Adult and Adult readers (not YA/MG)
  • Similar Books
    • The Space Between Worlds
    • Children of Time
    • Sea of Tranquility
    • Says: The book explores big ethical concepts with morally gray characters.
It also seems okay to call those things out -- X blends the high concept and ethical labyrinth of ____ with the adventure of ___, etc.

Agents consistently say to be current and realistic. While you may not have read all the books listed, it's a way to show that you understand the genre as it currently exists and that your work is in conversation with the current state. Listing Garth Nix and David Eddings as comps for a fantasy novel declares, This is a throwback / I'm not current with the genre.

Similarly, saying, This manuscript will appeal to fans of Stephen King, GRRM and JK Rowling, is actually declaring, I'm delusional. I wrote a play and it'll appeal to fans of Tom Stoppard, Tennessee Williams and Shakespeare--but Miller fans are only a maybe. Oh, my poetry? It resonates with fans of Dickinson, Browning and Gibran. Oh, will it? (/s)
 
ColGray said:
With a big pile of salt, I think the biggest issue is that query writing is a sales skill and novel writing is a writing skill. It's apples and canaries.
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Gonna take more than a pile of salt to convince me of this. Both are writing and thus both require writing skills. Are you expecting the publisher to believe that the hundred pages you wrote are good, but you can't bring the good in a 100 words? More importantly, being able to summarize your story is an essential step early in the writing process that is fundamental to writing good stories. If you can't sketch the thumbnails, you'll never be able to master the full portrait. Ever hear of a painter who can't sketch the thumbnails because "it's a different skill?" Thumbnails are sketched and summaries written because they rely on precisely the same skills.

The quote I highlighted above is just a rationalization. You're protecting yourself from facing a brutal reality...

The problem isn't the pitch, it's the story.

Think to yourself... Why would it be difficult for your own self to summarize your own story? Or de-personalize the question. Ask yourself why it would be difficult for any writer to summarize their story? What problems would it be difficult for the writer to overcome in a summary? When you can answer that, you will know what the problems with your story are.

It's a tough reality to face, because of all the blood, sweat and toil you've sunk into. But the quicker you do--the more quickly you are honest with yourself--the sooner you can learn and grow.
 
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Paul J. Menzies said:
Ever hear of a painter who can't sketch the thumbnails because "it's a different skill?
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Just so I'm clear: you think painting, with brushes and oils, is a one-to-one skill set as drawing, with charcoal or pencils? There's nothing in that description-- like the tools or medium or the verb-- that might suggest they're related but different skills? Like someone couldn't or shouldn't be better at one than the other? Or have more practice with one than the other?

I'm not sure if you're trying to be helpful or trolling, but stating that struggles to immediately master a niche, tough skill -- a skill with which even paid experts struggle -- a skill where "good" is a 5%-10% positive response rate -- a skill difficult enough that there are paid experts -- must mean the underlying work is unreadable, is deeply unhelpful.
 
ColGray said:
Just so I'm clear: you think painting, with brushes and oils, is a one-to-one skill set as drawing, with charcoal or pencils? There's nothing in that description-- like the tools or medium or the verb-- that might suggest they're related but different skills? Like someone couldn't or shouldn't be better at one than the other? Or have more practice with one than the other?

I'm not sure if you're trying to be helpful or trolling, but stating that struggles to immediately master a niche, tough skill -- a skill with which even paid experts struggle -- a skill where "good" is a 5%-10% positive response rate -- a skill difficult enough that there are paid experts -- must mean the underlying work is unreadable, is deeply unhelpful.
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This is apparently going to come as a shock, but for centuries that is exactly what serious painters did. There's even movies about the process. I've worked as a graphic artist, thumbnails are key.

But I totally expected you to split hairs and continue to lean on the crutch that one is sales, the other writing. It still doesn't explain why you can't adequately summarize your story, something every writer needs to do early in the process.

The synopsis is part of the sales process. Are you going to suck at it because sales is a different skill? See how ridiculous this seems?

And you seem unwilling to answer the self-examining questions posed later. I could've just handed you the answers, but wouldn't it be more rewarding if you yourself discovered them? But I guess that's now considered "unhelpful."

If you'd like a more helpful discussion, I'm more than willing to analyze your query word by word in your query critique thread, where I already have a much lengthier post which addresses the query more directly.

Simply prove to me that I'm wrong (and I'm more than willing to be so) by posting the log line of your story as a reply to my comment there. Your story in one sentence. And we will go from there.
 
Paul J. Menzies said:
Simply prove to me that I'm wrong (and I'm more than willing to be so) by posting the log line of your story as a reply to my comment there. Your story in one sentence. And we will go from there.
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I appreciate that you think I owe you an explanation, overly-self-confident-uncredentialled-internet-person, but no thanks.

Worth noting that the multiple Chrons'ers with published books to their name engage with critical suggestions and thoughtful critique rather than sweeping, unfounded assertions and incendiary challenges.
 
I'm not asking for an explanation of any sort, in fact I'd rather not have any explanation. Just a log line. That and your pitch should be able to stand on their own two feet without explanation.

I apologize for giving you a difficult-to-take critique that you didn't like. No one would. Your reaction is understandable. I have all the empathy in the world for it. Been there myself.

One of the things we have to be concerned about at Chrons is that there are many writers and readers who read these posts besides the OP and the commenters. Many who are not even site members. I read here for months before becoming a member. I saw a comment by you that was, IMO, demonstrably false. And could lead to other prospective writers using the same false thinking rather than looking at the problem deeper. All I was trying to do was to get you (and others) to not accept the rationalization that queries are a mystery we call sales and not-writing, but to go deeper and accept any brutally hard truths that honest examination might expose. My younger self was guilty of the same mistake till I was harshly clued in by Hollywood readers.. At any rate, that wasn't about you but about everyone. Sadly, you were the example.

I also wouldn't be spending my time in this thread if I thought you were some no-talent hack. In fact--irony alert--I'd say, even from the very first query you posted that you actually can write good sales copy. That first line is exactly what a good copy writer would do. Has great punch to it.

The problem is pitches aren't really sales in the normal sense. A publisher doesn't have to decide between Burger King and McDonald's, they can have them both, if they think both are worth tasting. The query process is more of a process to filter out the bad to save on a publisher's finite time and resources for the more worthy looking projects. Our pitches are their meat detector. You gave them good sizzle, but there needs to be steak on their table after that promise.

Thus, the true goal is to not get filtered out. Queries reveal to the publisher what manuscripts can safely be filtered out. Hook is part of that. Your hook has some minor issues but nothing major (depending). I doubt the hook is holding you back. The obvious major issues are with the meat of the summary.

Both my critique of your query on the other thread, and here do offer constructive criticism. I believe over a dozen suggestions. Most of it is criticism you've actually already heard from others on this site, many of whom are published writers as you point out. I feel confident about my take actually because it is in such close agreement with theirs. But from what I can tell, it doesn't look like you've attended to their suggestions. Apologies if you have. Much of your other thread instead reads like reasons why you can't attend to the issues they bring forward, which leads me to believe those problems they and I have identified are still around. But I don't know for sure. That's why I asked for the log line. Thought it would be quicker for you than a multi-para pitch. Plus it would be something to compare the pitch to and might provide new insight..

But apologies again. That post asking for your log line I dashed off rather quickly and it came across curt and challenging. I did mean to challenge but in hindsight that was a poor ploy. That's on me.

From the limited knowledge these two threads give me, you seem determined to mask or hide those issues your pitch reveals rather than dealing with the issues themselves. I think that is a normal response. All of us would much rather re-write a pitch than a novel. And maybe re-writing the pitch is the solution... but I doubt it. You're a good writer. I think if there weren't underlying issues, the pitch would have been fairly easy for you. I also think you'd have easily answered those issues when raised in theother thread and with the assistance there, now have a rock solid query, So I would be doing you no constructive favors by lying to you about those issues or ignoring them to focus on the pitch summary instead. I'm not saying the things I've said in these posts to do bad things to you, to hurt you. I'm saying them because they're difficult truths I think you need to look at more closely.... and that not doing so could be far more damaging to you (and your own finite time and resources) than the critique I've offered. I'd also be wasting my own time by suggesting fixes to a query when there are deeper issues that look like they need to be addressed first. This all places me in the hard spot of being the messenger with harsh news and the likelihood of receiving back what such messengers have always gotten. But I'm old balls and can take it.

And finally I will add, if someone is pointing to potential issues in the novel and not the query, that doesn't mean that critique is unconstructive. Just means you will have a much more difficult and lengthy time fixing those issues. Some hard decisions to make. That's a brutal thing to hear, but doesn't make it unconstructive.

As for my credentials, if those are important... I have been published multiple times, just not in long-form fiction. I have also had a screenplay optioned, and three screenplays read and critiqued by professional Hollywood readers, so I've successfully been through the query process. I've also written published non-fiction and plenty of marketing copy (debatable whether that is fiction or non-, lol). I've studied writing for over thirty years and like you also have a university degree.

I hope you have a better day. Very sorry if I've wrecked it. Best wishes to you in your writing.
___________

Sorry @Teresa Edgerton I was composing this and did not see your comment above. Please advise if this is not up to site standard.
 
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Paul J. Menzies said:
till I was harshly clued in by Hollywood readers.
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You come from a screenwriting background, specifically focused in a very tough field with (as I understand it) its own strict rules. You also say in the other thread that you're not a published novel author -- and I assume you haven't worked in publishing, or you would have said so. I'm not sure then how you claim to speak with such indisputable authority about how pitching novels (rather than Hollywood screenplays) works. There might be some crossover, but screenplays are usually much less complex structurally -- witness how many novel-to-movie adaptations fail because the source material cannot be condensed down. They also tend to need to fit certain expectations much more closely, because so much money is involved. Being able to reduce a screenplay to a logline is a necessity. I'm not convinced that it's such a deal-breaker in pitching novels. I would need to see evidence.
 
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"Tells it like it is", "tough love", "cuts the crap", "doesn't suffer fools lightly"... all BS to me. If you can't give criticism politely, why should anyone care what you think?
 
I think that Paul Menzies is being a bit hob nailed boot about this, and though he has apologized to some extent he does need to dial it back a little further, but lets not get the thread shut. After all Paul is joining in in some detail and SFF Chrons is a lot more polite than a lot of the internet and it can take newcomers a while to get the hang of it.

Summarising your own work is tricky, can't see the wood for the trees territory and some people will get it immediately, some have to do a lot of work, and some will never get it. It is made harder by the utter lack of feedback from your target audience - publishers and agents. On their part some of that is lack of time and some is bad experiences with a minority of writers who argue and argue over every single point that they were right all along and how can anyone reject such wonderful writing?
I was thinking about analogies and decided on learning to drive. I think most people probably start learning to drive a car in a fairly low end small car - especially if you learn in a driving school in the UK. You get your licence, but then there are all sorts of other driving experiences out there from learning to tow a trailer, drive a van, a tractor, a sports car, drive on the other side of the road. You need an extra licence to drive an HGV. Then there are racing car drivers of many flavours, on tracks, rallying on country roads, going off road. If you get it wrong you get immediate feedback - you stall, you spin out, you crash. You know immediately when it is wrong which makes learning easier - in theory - though in practice some people will never get a licence, other people will be fine in a small low powered car but shouldn't try for anything harder and then there are people who can drive HGVs or formula 1 cars.

I don't hang out in the writing areas much at the moment, but I am just wondering whether there is, or could be, a thread on exercises for summarising/pitching published books. Perhaps everyone agrees on a book, e.g. Dune, or something shorter like Murderbot, writes a pitch and they are all posted on the thread on a given day. Now that won't give you any idea of whether an agent would like the pitch, but it might be one small step on the journey to learning to write pitches.
 
Montero said:
I don't hang out in the writing areas much at the moment, but I am just wondering whether there is, or could be, a thread on exercises for summarising/pitching published books.
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Summarising books is a useful exercise. You'd have to agree a word limit, though. Most films and quite a few novels, even big ones, can be summarised in one sentence, but I'm not sure how useful that is in novel pitches (the video linked by @Rufus Coppertop, from an actual agent, gives 5-8 lines as a useful measure, which is longer than a screenplay logline).

The comparison of thumbnail sketches to full paintings was made above, and to what extent they use different skills (as an analogy to comparing writing a pitch and a whole novel). I think a better analogy would be to compare a landscape painting with designing a book cover. In fact, in terms of capturing the essence of a thing in a way that sells it to people, I think sketching a book cover is probably as far from writing a novel as writing a pitch would be.
 
Montero said:
I am just wondering whether there is, or could be, a thread on exercises for summarising/pitching published books. Perhaps everyone agrees on a book, e.g. Dune, or something shorter like Murderbot, writes a pitch and they are all posted on the thread on a given day. Now that won't give you any idea of whether an agent would like the pitch, but it might be one small step on the journey to learning to write pitches
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This sound like a good idea, if someone wants to start a thread in the Workshop.
 
In writing workshops I've given both the one-sentence-outline and the design-your-cover exercise, both are good for getting to the heart of the matter. I'm going to be giving a "First Lines, First Page" workshop at this year's Edge Lit (September 7th) if anyone's coming along.
 
I think it's Pixar that uses this outline:

Once upon a time there was ___. Every day, ___. One day ___. Because of that, ___. Because of that, ___. Until finally ___.

It isn't one sentence, but its very direct and concrete.
 
I haven't done querying in several years or more now and am a little out of touch. I seem to remember everyone has different requirements from one line, to 100 words to a page of A4. What is everyone else seeing?

I'm wondering about varying the exercise between differing agents/publishers requirements.
 
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