Villeneuve's Dune: Part Two (2024)

[Brian G Turner]

You're going against the text all the time.

And just to clarify that the Bene Gesserit plant myths all over as part of the Missionaria Protectiva to help their own in any time of need, something Jessica plays along with not because she believes Paul is the fulfillment of the Fremen prophecy, but because she recognizes that they will need Fremen help to survive Arrakis, and so uses this prophecy to manipulate them. This is underlined in the film by Zendaya's character who openly says as such.

I'm re-reading Dune at the moment and the chapter where Jessica first meets Shadout Mapes on Arrakis implicitly describes this as well, from the introduction to the actual dialogue. I'll include a few quotes from the text below to help you understand this better:

With the Lady Jessica and Arrakis, the Bene Gesserit system of sowing implant-legends through the Missionaria Protectiva came to its full fruition. The wisdom of seeding the known universe with a prophecy pattern for the protection of B.G. personnel has long been appreciated, but never have we seen a condition-ut-extremis with more ideal mating of person and preparation.

‘The Fremen have learned that you’re Bene Gesserit,’ he said. ‘There are legends here about the Bene Gesserit.’
The Missionaria Protectiva, Jessica thought. No place escapes them.

‘My husband told me of your title, Shadout,’ Jessica said. ‘I recognized the word. It’s a very ancient word.’
‘You know the ancient tongues then?’ Mapes asked, and she waited with an odd intensity.
‘Tongues are the Bene Gesserit’s first learning,’ Jessica said. ‘I know the Bhotani Jib and the Chakobsa, all the hunting languages.’
Mapes nodded. ‘Just as the legend says.’
And Jessica wondered: Why do I play out this sham? But the Bene Gesserit ways were devious and compelling.

‘Do you know this, my Lady?’ Mapes asked.
It could only be one thing, Jessica knew, the fabled crysknife of Arrakis, the blade that had never been taken off the planet, and was known only by rumor and wild gossip. ‘It’s a crysknife,’ she said.
‘Say it not lightly,’ Mapes said. ‘Do you know its meaning?’
And Jessica thought: There was an edge to that question. Here’s the reason this Fremen has taken service with me, to ask that one question. My answer could precipitate violence or … what? She seeks an answer from me: the meaning of a knife. She’s called the Shadout in the Chakobsa tongue. Knife, that’s ‘Death Maker’ in Chakobsa. She’s getting restive. I must answer now. Delay is as dangerous as the wrong answer. Jessica said: ‘It’s a maker—’
‘Eighe-e-e-e-e-e!’ Mapes wailed. It was a sound of grief and elation. She trembled so hard the knife blade sent glittering shards of reflection shooting around the room.
Jessica waited, poised. She had intended to say the knife was a maker of death and then add the ancient word, but every sense warned her now, all the deep training of alertness that exposed meaning in the most casual muscle twitch. The key word was … maker. Maker? Maker.
Still, Mapes held the knife as though ready to use it. Jessica said: ‘Did you think that I, knowing the mysteries of the Great Mother, would not know the Maker?’
Mapes lowered the knife. ‘My Lady, when one has lived with prophecy for so long, the moment of revelation is a shock.’
Jessica thought about the prophecy – the Shari-a and all the panoplia propheticus, a Bene Gesserit of the Missionaria Protectiva dropped here long centuries ago – long dead, no doubt, but her purpose accomplished: the protective legends implanted in these people against the day of a Bene Gesserit’s need. Well, that day had come.

 

[Foxbat]

I finally got a chance to see part two. On the whole, I think I enjoyed it to a certain extent but felt it could have been better. I could appreciate the photography, the acting, the lighting, the whole kit and caboodle. And yet, it didn't really move me. It all felt a bit soulless and uncoagulated like an unset jelly.

In the Lynch version, there were moments of very dark humour, which not only fragmented the seriousness of it all but also gave us some insight into the darker characters.

In this version, there was only one mood and that lasted over two and a half hours. So you could say it had emotional linearity...or even that it was emotionally static. I felt the black and white nature of Geidi Prime went too far and almost became a parody of the bad guys dressed in black. It made me think of some kind of darkly perverted version of the 1939 Wizard Of Oz. All we needed was a wicked witch - well maybe we had them in the Harkonnens - but where was Dorothy with her ruby slippers? Perhaps Villeneuve should have stuck them on Margot Fenring...there's no place like the Empire, there's no place like the Empire....

It also felt (and the irony of my next statement is not lost on me given that this is a movie about a civilisation that has essentially eschewed high tech electronics) all a bit mechanical. It was as if the director had produced a set of (one of my pet hate phrases) key performance indicators and was ticking them off as each was met.

Ultimately, the most fundamental question I ask myself when I watch a movie is: 'how often will I want to watch this again?' The answer this time around is 'not very often.'

It's not a failure but it certainly ain't a masterpiece.

 

[Toby Frost]

It's not a failure but it certainly ain't a masterpiece.

That's how I felt about the first part.

 

[Baldanders]

Clearly the BG are not acting openly, and clearly they cannot trust the various houses to protect them - hence why they have seeded myths around the populated planets to give them protection as and when required.
Everyone knows of genetic schemes, but it doesn't interfere with interests of others. Not a single character pays attention to BG. They are just weirdos for everyone, but respected weirdos, as they have Voice and see future. They don't need protection, because no one cares about them.

otherwise they would have pushed to engineer their KH directly among them

By your logic, if anyone learns BG mates Atreides and Harkonnens, there will be big troubles = BG takes huge risks to do it. That means gen engineering is not that simple, they search specific gens (which is proven in the book), which means Fremen gens are not an option.

Paul and Jessica take advantage of that by fitting themselves to certain parts of the legend

The path for them was made by BG, it's repeated several times. And Herbert makes big accent that Fremen are displeased with Paul all the time, because he refuses to do what they expect (because BG's myth described KH's role for Fremen very clear). How many times Fremen tried to kill Paul during the first two books? Starting with Jamis and finishing with Korba. What kind of a protection is this?

The Lisan al-Gaib and the Kwisatz Haderach are unrelated.
suggesting that the BG was ultimately hoping to align these enemy houses with a marriage
What???

Attaching the Leto's sentence from the 5th book, where he says that BG knew about Golden Path, but didn't implement it. They didn't implement, because... yes, because Paul saw the Golden Path, refused to realize it and cut all the relations with BG in the end of the first book. So, from the very beginning BG's plan was the Golden Path.

 

[Baldanders]

And just to clarify that the Bene Gesserit plant myths all over as part of the Missionaria Protectiva to help their own in any time of need, something Jessica plays along with not because she believes Paul is the fulfillment of the Fremen prophecy, but because she recognizes that they will need Fremen help to survive Arrakis, and so uses this prophecy to manipulate them. This is underlined in the film by Zendaya's character who openly says as such.

I'm re-reading Dune at the moment and the chapter where Jessica first meets Shadout Mapes on Arrakis implicitly describes this as well, from the introduction to the actual dialogue. I'll include a few quotes from the text below to help you understand this better:

I think you understand "protective legends" too straight here. It's not about Fremen protecting BG, it's about BG being protected against Fremen. Fremen kill strangers for water. They want to kill Atreides in the first meet (and many times after), but Jessica's status makes them think twice. And in this scene with Shadut Jessica is afraid that she took out knife to attack Jessica.

There is no scenario foundation for BG to search protection from primitive nations like Fremen - against nuclear weapons, Tleilaxu facedancers, united Landsraad or even the same Voice of Bene Gesserit. And I will repeat it again: no one in Imperium is against BG. But primitive nations, yes, among them BG status and their mission doesn't mean anything.

If you say the myth about messiah was planted to protect BG, why it includes exactly mother and son? How many Sisters come to Arrakis with a son, so they could exploit this myth? And if BG planted it specifically for Paul and Jessica, you have to admit - BG knew everything from the very beginning (destruction of House Atreides, Paul's birth instead of a daughter and mating her with Fade, etc.). So, it all was their plan.

Do you even understand what you state: the myth about messiah MAN was planted to protect Bene Gesserit SISTERS???

P.S. Yes, I know, we're again talking not exactly about the movie, but, guys, how can we just drop the book here? The movie is based on it -understanding the source is everything.

 

[hitmouse]

I reread the book recently, having last read it about 40 years ago as a teenager, and then I think aged about 19. I was very impressed then. Enjoyed it this time around, but I was not overawed.

I did like the films, the first better than the second.

In terms of fidelity to the book, they were fine. I am happy to allow some interpretation compared to the book, as with Blade Runner or LOTR.

The proposition that “Dune is not for mass audience - it requires particular interests and at least some education in philosophy, politics, cybernetics” is just silly, and misses the point of a popular novel, albeit one with some layers. Someone said something similar recently about Tolkein, and was roundly pooh-pooed. It is equivalent to stating that Wodehouse is not for an audience that lacks understanding of silk cravats and pig farming.

 

[Swank]

Everyone knows of genetic schemes, but it doesn't interfere with interests of others. Not a single character pays attention to BG. They are just weirdos for everyone, but respected weirdos, as they have Voice and see future. They don't need protection, because no one cares about them.

Nope. The BG can't see the future - they can see women in their past as linked by the Sharing of Reverend Mothers. They can also tell who's lying, and the Baron fears that in particular.

But you misunderstood "protection". When Stilgar suggested killing Jessica and keeping Paul, that was exactly the sort of protection that Jessica needed. But she used BG fighting techniques to best Stilgar, earning his protection that way.

If you say the myth about messiah was planted to protect BG, why it includes exactly mother and son? How many Sisters come to Arrakis with a son, so they could exploit this myth? And if BG planted it specifically for Paul and Jessica, you have to admit - BG knew everything from the very beginning (destruction of House Atreides, Paul's birth instead of a daughter and mating her with Fade, etc.). So, it all was their plan.

All sons have mothers. The point of this particular prophecy is that you just need two people to play those roles convincingly - and the BG sister orchestrating it doesn't have to be either of them. The point is that by using the right leverage a large populace or select individuals could be influenced in a relatively short period of time. And that influence doesn't have to be for "protection" per se, but can be used for whatever the BG needs. But the prophecies are designed and promulgated by a BG group most concerned with preserving the lives of sisters.

By your logic, if anyone learns BG mates Atreides and Harkonnens, there will be big troubles = BG takes huge risks to do it. That means gen engineering is not that simple, they search specific gens (which is proven in the book), which means Fremen gens are not an option.

By my logic, the recognized heirs of two major houses aren't going to have a secret child together, so I was pointing out that Feyd and Leto's daughter could only have produced a son/KW candidate if they were married. That is the only obvious assumption about what the future plan for them might be.

The path for them was made by BG, it's repeated several times. And Herbert makes big accent that Fremen are displeased with Paul all the time, because he refuses to do what they expect (because BG's myth described KH's role for Fremen very clear). How many times Fremen tried to kill Paul during the first two books? Starting with Jamis and finishing with Korba. What kind of a protection is this?

The best you can hope for considering the Fremen have free will? It's a prophecy, not a magic potion. The film actually does a good job examining that idea by showing the northern Fremen as not buying into the prophecy, but rallying behind Paul because he stands a good chance of beating the Harkonnens under a united Fremen.

Attaching the Leto's sentence from the 5th book, where he says that BG knew about Golden Path, but didn't implement it. They didn't implement, because... yes, because Paul saw the Golden Path, refused to realize it and cut all the relations with BG in the end of the first book. So, from the very beginning BG's plan was the Golden Path.

The BG didn't invent the Golden Path. Leto II is accusing them of having the same background of lived history that he does through other lives, and that they must have conceived of a similar plan - but didn't have the stomach to engineer a takeover of the empire to then suppress humanity for 3000 years. And he says this basically to say that the BG shouldn't be too bitter about Leto's suppression of the BG because he is both their creation AND tapped into the same sources.


The BG cannot see the future, aside from though analysis of the past. The KW is not the Lisan al Gaib. Read the books. You are not reading carefully.

 

[Brian G Turner]

It's not a failure but it certainly ain't a masterpiece.

Interesting - we loved it here. I can see myself rewatching this more than once, which is something I can't say for many other films these days.

Maybe it's simply because the source material of the book is so good that it's hard for any film based on it to be too bad. Then again, I liked the Lynch version at the time for the same reason.

 

[Baldanders]

The proposition that “Dune is not for mass audience - it requires particular interests and at least some education in philosophy, politics, cybernetics” is just silly, and misses the point of a popular novel, albeit one with some layers

Go to a place for mass audience, e.g. McDonald's, and ask people to give you the definition of empire, despotism and theocracy. Herbert talks of these things - I wonder how long it'll take to find at least one understanding them (and there is much more in Dune). It's not for mass audience.

When Stilgar suggested killing Jessica and keeping Paul, that was exactly the sort of protection that Jessica needed.

You're supporting me, aren't you? I knew, you're on my side Yes, BG needs protection, but against Fremen.

This complex theory: BG does smth bad... if someone knows... there will be war or smth... so BG needs help. The book is plain: Paul learned he is Harkonnen, and he didn't fight BG. The book just doesn't work like you say.

but didn't have the stomach to engineer a takeover of the empire to then suppress humanity for 3000 years
But they did. At the end of the 1st book, Paul blames BG in trying to create a bunch of chosen ones to direct humanity, and he refuses to do that. Leto, instead of dynasty, became a permanent ruler, but it's the same plan.

The BG can't see the future
They can and Spacing Guild can (at the end of the 1st book SG navigators can't see the future, so they accept Paul's terms). But BG uses female memories, which gives them a half of info needed for predictions. KH was supposed to solve it, by gaining both memory of men and women. This is why Paul sees much more after taking the Water and gaining memories - foresight is just analyses of the past (cybernetics, right?!).

 

[Baldanders]

Returning to the movie. After Paul takes Water, he declares: "our enemies are around us!". Who's around them? Fremen surround Shaddam nearly in the next episode and smash Sardaucar in one attack. The phrase is taken from the book, but there it was a dramatic turn: the entire Imperium rushed to Arrakis, as everyone depends on it, and only threats to destroy spice saved Paul. An unbearable gathering of enemies, right?! But in the movie, it's a rudiment which sounds epic, but goes nowhere.

Another failure is nuclear arsenal. Atreides just arrived on Arrakis, didn't even organize spice harvesting and defense, but already built nuclear guns stash? And stashed them so bad that were not able to use them against Harkonnen? They expected attack, but took away the wonder weapon, which allowed to deal even with Shaddam - the main dominator of Imperium? Sounds like highly concentrated bull**** to me.

While there are some positive moments in the movie, its scenarists are completely terrible. It's not adaptation, because they do not adapt to the book - they just add completely alien stuff.

 

[Dave]

Every adaptation of any book to film necessarily makes changes. You can't prevent that as they are different mediums. I don't disagree with you that some minor changes might lose the impact of the words spoken, alter meanings, or that they could be better. Overall, it was probably as good an adaptation as you are ever going to get. People are free to read the book instead.

As for your other comments, they just don't stack up:

Go to a place for mass audience, e.g. McDonald's, and ask people to give you the definition of empire, despotism and theocracy.

Why don't you think they can? There are examples from modern history, even from current affairs and newspapers.

The book is plain: Paul learned he is Harkonnen, and he didn't fight BG.

The BG planned to carefully mix bloodlines, but they didn't themselves force people into marriages or to have extra-marital affairs. If Paul has any beef about his parentage, then that should be with his grandmother surely? Being a Harkonnen gives him huge advantages anyway, why would this even be a problem for him.

Paul blames BG in trying to create a bunch of chosen ones to direct humanity, and he refuses to do that. Leto, instead of dynasty, became a permanent ruler, but it's the same plan.

Paul is not Leto. And in any case, even the greatest of plans need to adapt as circumstances change.

The BG can't see the future
They can...

They can't.

Also the very idea that "history repeats itself" is false and wrongheaded.

You can certainly draw parallels from the past. You can make predictions about paths that the future may take. These are still predictions. We can't "learn history to prevent making the same mistakes in the future." We can learn from the mistakes of the past, but stopping them from occurring again isn't quite so easy because the circumstances are different.

Having the power of Precognition, or just a patchy foresight from dreams and images, is not the same thing at all as prediction based upon past analysis. Also, if they had Precognition then they wouldn't have made any of the mistakes they clearly make, and they would have known everything about the KH in advance.

 

[Brian G Turner]

There is no scenario foundation for BG to search protection from primitive nations

No offense, but you really need to re-read Dune. See the examples I posted in this post which explicitly state that the BG used the MP to specifically ensure BG's could be protected by the local inhabitants, if called to do so. The Fremen are the protection.

When Stilgar suggested killing Jessica and keeping Paul, that was exactly the sort of protection that Jessica needed.

You're supporting me, aren't you? I knew, you're on my side Yes, BG needs protection, but against Fremen.

No, you have it the wrong way around - Jessica used her BG training and the MP to ensure the Fremen protected both her and Paul.

 

[Foxbat]

Interesting - we loved it here. I can see myself rewatching this more than once, which is something I can't say for many other films these days.

Maybe it's simply because the source material of the book is so good that it's hard for any film based on it to be too bad. Then again, I liked the Lynch version at the time for the same reason.

I love the source material and I think, overall, Villeneuve’s version is fairly close to it but (there’s always a but) there are two works that remind me of Part Two. The first is LOTR The Two Towers and the other is Henry IV Part Two. They’re all not bad works but, simply put, just a bit of a grind.

Another failure is nuclear arsenal. Atreides just arrived on Arrakis, didn't even organize spice harvesting and defense, but already built nuclear guns stash? And stashed them so bad that were not able to use them against Harkonnen? They expected attack, but took away the wonder weapon, which allowed to deal even with Shaddam - the main dominator of Imperium? Sounds like highly concentrated bull**** to me.

From what I recall, there is a treaty in place that forbids the direct use of nuclear weapons against any other great house. They were primarily left overs for use against the Great Enemy.

Paul gets around this restriction on use by blowing the shield wall ratherthan a direct attack on humans. The nukes would have been no help to the Atreides against the Harkonnens because, if they had used them and won, the entire Landsraad would have turned against them and the emperor would still get his wish of having House Atreides neutralised by the other outraged great houses.

 

[The Judge]

I've never understood the preoccupation some people have with burrowing into films and novels to extract ideas which the director/novelist might or might not have intended and then loudly announcing that their conclusions about such ideas are the only viable ones and everyone else is wrong. They will then argue points ad nauseam not so much to persuade others that they are wrong -- people generally don't change their minds on the diktat of obsessives -- but in order to have the last word.

Well, this is the last word.

Those who want to talk about the film as a film, please do so.

Those who are more concerned with airing their own views or correcting someone else's, stop now and shut up.

 

[Foxbat]

And…,back to the film.

With regard to a previous post I made assuming there are extras on the DVD…..Newsflash…..there are none.

I don’t normally watch extras but found part one’s quite helpful. This time around, I would have liked to have known the reasoning (beyond aesthetic value) if any for giving Geidi Prime a monochrome makeover.

 

[Venusian Broon]

And…,back to the film.

With regard to a previous post I made assuming there are extras on the DVD…..Newsflash…..there are none.

I don’t normally watch extras but found part one’s quite helpful. This time around, I would have liked to have known the reasoning (beyond aesthetic value) if any for giving Geidi Prime a monochrome makeover.

I think the monochrome accentuated Geidi Prime as a stark, unnatural place. Everything was harsh lines and geometric shapes, nature stamped out of existence. It's the sort of place they you'd imagine has been designed to torture it's own inhabitants - helping to inflict sensory deprivation and isolation by cutting out colour etc... (see White Room Torture, it's a real thing!)

It makes me think, 'what sort of humans could bear to live in this place - how messed up are the Harkonnens?' Answer - pretty messed up.

 

[Swank]

I've never understood the preoccupation some people have with burrowing into films and novels to extract ideas which the director/novelist might or might not have intended and then loudly announcing that their conclusions about such ideas are the only viable ones and everyone else is wrong. They will then argue points ad nauseam not so much to persuade others that they are wrong -- people generally don't change their minds on the diktat of obsessives -- but in order to have the last word.

Well, this is the last word.

Those who want to talk about the film as a film, please do so.

Those who are more concerned with airing their own views or correcting someone else's, stop now and shut up.

Yeah, Brian. Cut it out.

 

[Elckerlyc]

I think the monochrome accentuated Geidi Prime as a stark, unnatural place. Everything was harsh lines and geometric shapes, nature stamped out of existence. It's the sort of place they you'd imagine has been designed to torture it's own inhabitants - helping to inflict sensory deprivation and isolation by cutting out colour etc... (see White Room Torture, it's a real thing!)

It makes me think, 'what sort of humans could bear to live in this place - how messed up are the Harkonnens?' Answer - pretty messed up.

In a similar way Arrakis was shown to be monochrome, everything in yellowish, sandy colours. A harsh environment, bleached by a scorching sun and made bare by sandblasted erosion.
People complained about the lack of colour. It was telling a story.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Actually, something that really struck me in part 2 was how vampiric the Fremen seemed. They may as well have been draining blood rather than handwavium tech that manages to extract pure water from the dead.

 

[Swank]

Actually, something that really struck me in part 2 was how vampiric the Fremen seemed. They may as well have been draining blood rather than handwavium tech that manages to extract pure water from the dead.

It was a good, horrific detail that showed both the extremes of their situation, the alienness that Paul and Jessica had to deal with and the fear the Harkonnens may have felt.

Also, it is easy to read Dune and forget that the Fremen are not 19th century cave dwellers. They have very sophisticated manufacturing technologies of their own.