Not too long ago I had a debate with a friend about whether or not Excalibur was actually the sword pulled from the stone. All of the Arthurian mythology I’ve read suggests that Excalibur is the same sword the entire time. My friend insisted that the sword in the stone was different than the one Arthur received from the lady in the lake, and that the one from the lady in the lake was the actual Excalibur. Thoughts?
A recent debate
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Harpo
Getting away with it
Apparently some say that Caliburn and Excalibur are the same sword, while others say they are two different swords.
Given the similarity in the two names, I’d say they are the same. But then, lake or stone? *shrugs*
Here’s a Quora bit on the subject:
www.quora.com
Given the similarity in the two names, I’d say they are the same. But then, lake or stone? *shrugs*
Here’s a Quora bit on the subject:
Are Excalibur and the Sword in the Stone the same? Why or why not?
Answer (1 of 4): No! Arthur got the first sword from the stone. Excaliber was given to him by the Lady of the Lake. It took me a while to realize that. But notice that the first sword is not named, which I think meant that that sword wasn't important, and was just a fill-in until Arthur got Excal...
The way I understand it is, when Arthur broke the sword in his fight with Lancelot the lady just magically repaired it. It wouldn’t make sense for “the sword in the stone” to not be important since depending on where you get your information it was a miracle sent by God or it belonged to Uther who stuck it in the stone to begin with. I’ve read T.S. Elliot’s “The Once and Future King” I haven’t read the one that the movie Excalibur is based on but to me both seem to indicate that they are the same sword.
Excalibur went by different names too,
There is no clear answer. In some old versions of the Arthurian legends, it appears that the sword in the stone is the sword that Arthur carries throughout his life (thus Excalibur or Caliburn, some of the many variations on the Welsh name Caledfwlch). In Malory, Arthur breaks his first sword and goes to the lady of the lake for a new one and that was Excalibur. In some of the old French versions, it is Gawaine who carries Excalibur, not Arthur. Modern versions tend to conflate the two swords (sword in the stone and gift of the lady of the lake). Some scholars have concluded that though they were two different swords, they had the same name.
My own opinion is that a) there would be no reason for the Lady of the Lake to give him a sword if he already had an excellent sword, and b) there is no reason for Arthur to send his sword that he carried through his life (Excalibur) to the Lady of the Lake when he was dying, unless he had received it of her in the first place. Therefore, the sword given to him by the Lady of the Lake is Excalibur. But as I said, that's just my opinion.
T. H. White wrote The Once and Future King. It is a wonderful book and I love it deeply, but like most authors of the tales White took liberties.
The movie Excalibur is the only place I can recall where the sword was originally Uther's. The movie does a neat job of combining the two swords, but again, it's modern and takes extensive liberties with the older material. (Of course the various authors of the older Matter of Britain also took liberties. That's what happens with legends over the centuries.)
My own opinion is that a) there would be no reason for the Lady of the Lake to give him a sword if he already had an excellent sword, and b) there is no reason for Arthur to send his sword that he carried through his life (Excalibur) to the Lady of the Lake when he was dying, unless he had received it of her in the first place. Therefore, the sword given to him by the Lady of the Lake is Excalibur. But as I said, that's just my opinion.
T. H. White wrote The Once and Future King. It is a wonderful book and I love it deeply, but like most authors of the tales White took liberties.
The movie Excalibur is the only place I can recall where the sword was originally Uther's. The movie does a neat job of combining the two swords, but again, it's modern and takes extensive liberties with the older material. (Of course the various authors of the older Matter of Britain also took liberties. That's what happens with legends over the centuries.)
I guess I’d always assumed that the lady repaired Excalibur after it was broken rather than replaced it. I suppose different swords with the same name makes sense too. The way I see it though with the returning of the sword to the Lady of the Lake was more that Arthur was the last one worthy of carrying it, and that’s why he sent it away.
As I said, it's a neat way of combining the two swords, but the movie is the first version to suggest that the Lady of the Lake repairs broken swords. I have since seen modern fiction which pick up on this idea in various ways.
There was a Scottish fantasy writer who moved to Canada and had a theory about Excalibur being an Arabic invention. Something about the word ex-calib being related to Syrian sword-making terminology.
It sounded like Joseph Campbell-inspired "it's a small world after all" mumbo jumbo to me but...
It sounded like Joseph Campbell-inspired "it's a small world after all" mumbo jumbo to me but...
Th
That seems very odd to me. Why would the Arabs make up a legend for the British isles. It does sound like mumbo jumbo.
I found the theory:
"Ex — Calib — eR:
In arabic the root word Calib means heart. The Ex- and -eR would have been added when the word was borrowed, and the -er or -re suffix is the active participle (of English and French grammar).
The word calibrate stems from qalb, in this case the heartbeat was used to measure time."
It still sounds like mumbo jumbo.
That still wouldn’t explain the Arabs making up an English legend. A brief google search explained that there was very little contact between the two during Arthur’s time. The Saracen knight wasn’t even part of the round table legend until long after it was first written.
They are different in Mallory.
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There's probably as many iterations of Arthur as there are of Robin Hood.
And one of those rare enduring myths (also including Robin Hood as well as Sherlock Holmes) where the desire and need for them to have been real people, means that there are probably more people who think they were real people than those who realise they are fictional characters
Is the theory in your second post the one from the Scottish fantasy writer? Is so, who is it? And if not, where did you get it?
I ask because I'm writing something that links Excalibur with the heart, through the old (Arabic-derived?) myth about quenching a blade by plunging it through a body.
Christine Wheelwright
Well-Known Member
Screw Malory! Monty Python has it thus:
- King Arthur: I am your king.
- Woman: Well, I didn't vote for you.
- King Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
- Woman: Well how'd you become king then?
- [Angelic music plays...]
- King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.
- Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony
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And you don't even want to know what The Hound has to say about swords with names...
Vladd67
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I'm assuming it's nothing good?
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It's more about the kinds of people who name swords, rather than the weapons themselves.
And no, it's not good.
People who name their swords are “see(c) you(u) next Tuesdays” in his opinion.
No the theory in the second post came from:
Yeah quenching a blade--that might be along the lines of what he said-it sounds familiar-I recall him saying something about sword-making and Arabic myths associated with it. I wish I could remember the guy but all I know is he wrote fantasy series for Tor Books and was living in British Columbia around 2001.
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