A recent debate

HareBrain, If you can get your hands on a copy of The Forge and the Crucible, by Mircea Eliade, it might have some information useful to your project,. I'm not sure of that, since I read it a long time ago, but I do remember something about sacrifices being made to the forge or during smelting, though can't recall whether swords were involved. Anyway, it's an awesome book (which in fact you may already have read at some point) whcih combines shamanism, alchemy, and blacksmithing. New copies are expensive, but you might find it at the public library and see if it's of sufficient interest—not just for what you were writing about above, but for stories you might write in the future—to buy your own copy. (Assuming you don't already have one.)

As for fantasy that combines magic and metallurgy, in particular sword-making, have you read Michael Scott Rohan's Winter of the World Trilogy? It's been OP for a long time, but recently available in digital. I was so impressed by it when I scored ancient paperbacks many years ago, that when I found out there was a sequel trilogy, not available in this country, I went to great lengths to score used editions from yours. It turns out they were a bit disappointing, so I'm not recommending those, but the first three books The Anvil of Ice, The Forge in the Forest, and The Hammer of the Sun, you might like those as much as I did. The digital editions are quite reasonably priced. Like all books scanned in from older copies, I can't vouch for the formatting etc. But I think you would find the stories of great interest. (Again, if I'm not telling you about books you have already read.)

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Back to Excalibur after that digression:

Ambriel, in the old Welsh stories, such as those compiled in the Mabinogion, nothing is said about how Arthur acquired his sword, he just has it already in these stories. Sometimes it's named (Caledfwlch), sometimes not named at all We have an idea of when the stories were compiled in Middle Welsh (12th or 13th century) but the stories appear to be parts of a much older oral tradition, and show influences from pre-Christian Irish mythology.

In some of the medieval French Romances, it's not even Arthur's sword, as I mentioned a few posts past. Chretien de Troyes late 12th century Perceval, gives it to Gawain. It's called "Escalibor" but obviously just another version of the more familiar name. But speaking of French writers, it was apparently Robert de Boron who first mentioned the sword in the stone, in his Merlin, at roughly the same time that Chretien was writing.

So as to which sword was which and how Arthur came by it (them), and how many sword smight have the same name (or variations on that name), it depends on which sources one has been reading, and which ones, I think, resonate the most strongly with our own imaginations.
 
HareBrain, If you can get your hands on a copy of The Forge and the Crucible, by Mircea Eliade, it might have some information useful to your project,. I'm not sure of that, since I read it a long time ago, but I do remember something about sacrifices being made to the forge or during smelting, though can't recall whether swords were involved. Anyway, it's an awesome book (which in fact you may already have read at some point) whcih combines shamanism, alchemy, and blacksmithing. New copies are expensive, but you might find it at the public library and see if it's of sufficient interest—not just for what you were writing about above, but for stories you might write in the future—to buy your own copy. (Assuming you don't already have one.)

As for fantasy that combines magic and metallurgy, in particular sword-making, have you read Michael Scott Rohan's Winter of the World Trilogy? It's been OP for a long time, but recently available in digital. I was so impressed by it when I scored ancient paperbacks many years ago, that when I found out there was a sequel trilogy, not available in this country, I went to great lengths to score used editions from yours. It turns out they were a bit disappointing, so I'm not recommending those, but the first three books The Anvil of Ice, The Forge in the Forest, and The Hammer of the Sun, you might like those as much as I did. The digital editions are quite reasonably priced. Like all books scanned in from older copies, I can't vouch for the formatting etc. But I think you would find the stories of great interest. (Again, if I'm not telling you about books you have already read.)

______

Back to Excalibur after that digression:

Ambriel, in the old Welsh stories, such as those compiled in the Mabinogion, nothing is said about how Arthur acquired his sword, he just has it already in these stories. Sometimes it's named (Caledfwlch), sometimes not named at all We have an idea of when the stories were compiled in Middle Welsh (12th or 13th century) but the stories appear to be parts of a much older oral tradition, and show influences from pre-Christian Irish mythology.

In some of the medieval French Romances, it's not even Arthur's sword, as I mentioned a few posts past. Chretien de Troyes late 12th century Perceval, gives it to Gawain. It's called "Escalibor" but obviously just another version of the more familiar name. But speaking of French writers, it was apparently Robert de Boron who first mentioned the sword in the stone, in his Merlin, at roughly the same time that Chretien was writing.

So as to which sword was which and how Arthur came by it (them), and how many sword smight have the same name (or variations on that name), it depends on which sources one has been reading, and which ones, I think, resonate the most strongly with our own imaginations.
I really like that answer a lot! I really had forgotten what it’s like to be on a polite part of the internet where debate don’t immediately devolve into ad hominem attacks.
 
As for fantasy that combines magic and metallurgy, in particular sword-making, have you read Michael Scott Rohan's Winter of the World Trilogy? It's been OP for a long time, but recently available in digital. I was so impressed by it when I scored ancient paperbacks many years ago, that when I found out there was a sequel trilogy, not available in this country, I went to great lengths to score used editions from yours. It turns out they were a bit disappointing, so I'm not recommending those, but the first three books The Anvil of Ice, The Forge in the Forest, and The Hammer of the Sun, you might like those as much as I did. The digital editions are quite reasonably priced. Like all books scanned in from older copies, I can't vouch for the formatting etc. But I think you would find the stories of great interest. (Again, if I'm not telling you about books you have already read.)
I never got round to reading them, but they stuck in my mind because of their covers by Ian Miller (in the UK at least), whose art I was really into.

I'll look them up, also the Mircea Eliade. Thanks for the recommendations.
 
I found the theory:

"Ex — Calib — eR:

In arabic the root word Calib means heart. The Ex- and -eR would have been added when the word was borrowed, and the -er or -re suffix is the active participle (of English and French grammar).

The word calibrate stems from qalb, in this case the heartbeat was used to measure time."

It still sounds like mumbo jumbo.
Couldn't it be a the British adopting a foreign name they associate with swordmaking? Damascus became associated with the best swordmaking, despite not being where the Wootz steel was from.
 
Pattern forged blades were widespread across Europe. Recommend "The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England" by H.R.Ellis Davidson. Nice discussion of the history and types (no photos though).

In AS and Nordic weapons, patterned blades were highly prized with twisted, braided and dragon-scale patterns edged in harder steel. A number of the blades had advanced techniques that resulted in the central runnel gaining shades of red, oranges, green etc. along those patterns. Naming high quality weapons (swords in particular) was common.

The pommels were also highly crafted, many with inlay. Later in the Merovingian many had gold cloisonne with shaped garnet panes. https://previews.agefotostock.com/p...6e1713666f0867aa2840190480be/dae-tc000281.jpg Truly magnificent art. The pinnacle (opinion) being the Sutton Hoo gear. Sutton Hoo - Wikipedia

Imagine that with a red or green dragon skin patterned blade.
 
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Then again, the name of the sword could just be a name the author came up with that sounded good. Arthur was a fictional character with a fictional sword.
 
Couldn't it be a the British adopting a foreign name they associate with swordmaking? Damascus became associated with the best swordmaking, despite not being where the Wootz steel was from.
I think that was the idea but I wonder if it is too Joseph Campbell-ish in assumption. Campbell would say "look at this--all these places around the world had the same idea of a going through trials and taking a journey." Yeah of course because what is the character going to do otherwise? Stand still. And making a big deal about a sword being removed from an object--what do you do with a sword usually? You stick it in things. I am not sure it's as amazing a connection as they make out.
Wow! Syria had a concept of a sword being removed from something too!

What a small world.
 
It's quite amusing to think that some kings of England claimed descent from Arthur to enhance their own validity as ruler. It's a bit like Charles III claiming he has a bloodline with Aragorn.
 
@KGeo777 I remember seeing a documentary about multiple sources for great flood and ark stories including a Chinese version with one Nu Wah.
I just went to search for that and found two things
That there is an ancient Chinese deity called Nuwa (with an umlaut)
and there are several flood myths in China, with basis in reality, including

@paranoid marvin For a moment I read that as Aragon and thought "Katherine of Aragon".
 
I think that was the idea but I wonder if it is too Joseph Campbell-ish in assumption. Campbell would say "look at this--all these places around the world had the same idea of a going through trials and taking a journey." Yeah of course because what is the character going to do otherwise? Stand still. And making a big deal about a sword being removed from an object--what do you do with a sword usually? You stick it in things. I am not sure it's as amazing a connection as they make out.
Wow! Syria had a concept of a sword being removed from something too!

What a small world.
No, I'm saying that the author(s) could have simply lifted the word without associating it with a foreign story. Like Bic calling a disposable razor "Katana".
 
No, I'm saying that the author(s) could have simply lifted the word without associating it with a foreign story. Like Bic calling a disposable razor "Katana".
Maybe but I am skeptical that they would do that with something of such local mythological significance and in a time when language was probably much more inflexible and the meaning of words mattered more like with people's names. It if can be shown that certain sounds in the language of the time would not have incorporated that kind of word combination at all-it might be more feasible--or if there are other arabic words that were borrowed by the time then certainly but to me it seems like calling the sword the Vulcanizer.
I don't know but I just think it is part of the fad to assume everything was borrowed from someplace else on another continent, especially when it comes to Europe. If the word came from the French, that's more believable.
The Bible was introduced into Europe--when? 4th century? 5th? 8th? But Shakespeare has hardly any mention of it and that's 1600-so I am just not convinced that they were sitting around and thought--what would be a cool name for Arthur's sword and link it to some word that sounded like cool gibberish to them. Not unless they didn't do any of their own metal work. If swords were imported then sure--that would make it more likely.

PS
I looked up the origin of UK names recently for something and noticed a lot of male names were related to swords or spears in meaning.
Like Roger for example.
 
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Incidentally, remember a thing from yet another documentary that there is a version of the Arthur story in Brittany as well and it all seems to flow back and forth across the channel with bits being added and origin being claimed by several places.

I like the start of Eva St John's Quantum Curators and the Faberge Eggs - a Quantum Curator (who come from a parallel world) has been sent into the history of our earth, to retrieve Arthur's sword at the moment it is chucked into the lake. Very funny scene with someone in advance scuba diving gear under water in the lake, waiting for the priestesses to turn up, then having trouble with murky water and visibility, turns on a light to see underwater which makes the priestesses think "wow otherworldly power" (which is technically is) so they row over to the light to lob in the sword, so therefore she puts up her hand and arm out of the water in an advanced underwater suit - so probably black (samite) and shiny. Love that book and the opening.
 
There is no clear answer. In some old versions of the Arthurian legends, it appears that the sword in the stone is the sword that Arthur carries throughout his life (thus Excalibur or Caliburn, some of the many variations on the Welsh name Caledfwlch). In Malory, Arthur breaks his first sword and goes to the lady of the lake for a new one and that was Excalibur. In some of the old French versions, it is Gawaine who carries Excalibur, not Arthur. Modern versions tend to conflate the two swords (sword in the stone and gift of the lady of the lake). Some scholars have concluded that though they were two different swords, they had the same name.

My own opinion is that a) there would be no reason for the Lady of the Lake to give him a sword if he already had an excellent sword, and b) there is no reason for Arthur to send his sword that he carried through his life (Excalibur) to the Lady of the Lake when he was dying, unless he had received it of her in the first place. Therefore, the sword given to him by the Lady of the Lake is Excalibur. But as I said, that's just my opinion.

T. H. White wrote The Once and Future King. It is a wonderful book and I love it deeply, but like most authors of the tales White took liberties.

The movie Excalibur is the only place I can recall where the sword was originally Uther's. The movie does a neat job of combining the two swords, but again, it's modern and takes extensive liberties with the older material. (Of course the various authors of the older Matter of Britain also took liberties. That's what happens with legends over the centuries.)
"It's all canon"?
The people who told these stories didn't have to worry about continuity or "canon". There was no show-runner and no "fandom" to point out that there were ambiguities or inconsistencies. We can't constrict myth and legend into a mass-media, consumption-of-entertainment format. So sorry to be boring!
That said, the sword in the stone was obvs Excalibur, and so was the sword that came out of the lake.
 
"It's all canon"?
The people who told these stories didn't have to worry about continuity or "canon". There was no show-runner and no "fandom" to point out that there were ambiguities or inconsistencies. We can't constrict myth and legend into a mass-media, consumption-of-entertainment format. So sorry to be boring!
That said, the sword in the stone was obvs Excalibur, and so was the sword that came out of the lake.
More apologies... I know that all of you posting here do already know what I wrote above, but the Excalibur thing does irritate me and I don't think it can be resolved by digging deeper and deeper into Arthurian lore and legend.
Keep on trying!
 
As for fantasy that combines magic and metallurgy, in particular sword-making, have you read Michael Scott Rohan's Winter of the World Trilogy? It's been OP for a long time, but recently available in digital. I was so impressed by it when I scored ancient paperbacks many years ago, that when I found out there was a sequel trilogy, not available in this country, I went to great lengths to score used editions from yours. It turns out they were a bit disappointing, so I'm not recommending those, but the first three books The Anvil of Ice, The Forge in the Forest, and The Hammer of the Sun, you might like those as much as I did. The digital editions are quite reasonably priced. Like all books scanned in from older copies, I can't vouch for the formatting etc. But I think you would find the stories of great interest. (Again, if I'm not telling you about books you have already read.)
Another recommendation for these. I bought them (new) many years ago and liked them a lot. Gorgeous covers.
1000011853.jpg

1000011854.jpg
 
Oh, I like those covers! The US edition has cover art by Yvonne Gilbert, who is one of my favorite illustrators, so I'm pleased I have those ones instead. But it is nice to see another excellent interpretation.
 

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