Georgian Fantasy Opening -- Take Two

[Pyan]

Well, I can only say I liked it very much, and would definitely buy it on the basis of the extract. It reminded me a little of a Regency Rivers of London, which is no bad thing, IMHO.

 

[Swank]

I like the writing and the slippery POV. The open secret of the druids reminds me of the film Orlando where the MC's impossible age is politely ignored.

The race gender offence taken seems anachronistic. The Vestal ought to be more incensed with the disbelief or similar than incredibly normal racial commentary.


I found the use of drones and wasps distracting. Drones are male bees, wasps are all wasps. They don't fit together obviously. Plus, drone is now commonly something else.

 

[The Judge]

Thanks!

The race gender offence taken seems anachronistic.

Doubtless my fault for not making it clearer, but she's not taking offence at the race/gender comments because they're talking race/gender as such, but because she's taking all that's said as personal insults, in the same way as if someone said her hands were too large or her ankles too thick (not that they can see her ankles). She's not being given the respect she's due.

The Vestal ought to be more incensed with the disbelief or similar than incredibly normal racial commentary.

I don't imagine a Catholic priest or Methodist minister would be incensed that others didn't share their particular version of Christianity, and there's even less reason for the Vestals to be annoyed, since they're only presenting as kind-of-Anglican-with-quirks. She is offended at the rector's comments, though, and the idea of the Sacred Grove being destroyed, and perhaps I ought to make more of that.

I found the use of drones and wasps distracting. Drones are male bees, wasps are all wasps. They don't fit together obviously.

Yes, I know, but the insect imagery fitted with her character and thoughts, and I don't suppose many people would take issue at the men and women being described as different insects, nor at Wilson being described as a hornet, another insect altogether. "Drone" also fits as a dull noise, ie the men's boring voices.

Plus, drone is now commonly something else.

Frankly, if someone voluntarily reading a fantasy book based in Georgian England first thinks of a radio-controlled aircraft when reading "drone" then I might as well give up now! At times I'll necessarily be using words that reflect the time and place which may not always accord with how they're used today, so I'll just have to hope for readers who either understand the period or are willing to discover new meanings!

 

[Swank]

Thanks!


Doubtless my fault for not making it clearer, but she's not taking offence at the race/gender comments because they're talking race/gender as such, but because she's taking all that's said as personal insults, in the same way as if someone said her hands were too large or her ankles too thick (not that they can see her ankles). She's not being given the respect she's due.


I don't imagine a Catholic priest or Methodist minister would be incensed that others didn't share their particular version of Christianity, and there's even less reason for the Vestals to be annoyed, since they're only presenting as kind-of-Anglican-with-quirks. She is offended at the rector's comments, though, and the idea of the Sacred Grove being destroyed, and perhaps I ought to make more of that.


Yes, I know, but the insect imagery fitted with her character and thoughts, and I don't suppose many people would take issue at the men and women being described as different insects, nor at Wilson being described as a hornet, another insect altogether. "Drone" also fits as a dull noise, ie the men's boring voices.


Frankly, if someone voluntarily reading a fantasy book based in Georgian England first thinks of a radio-controlled aircraft when reading "drone" then I might as well give up now! At times I'll necessarily be using words that reflect the time and place which may not always accord with how they're used today, so I'll just have to hope for readers who either understand the period or are willing to discover new meanings!

You use "drone"for both an animal and noise, which causes the reader to have to do a quick thesaurus in their minds which puts them on other tracks. In a given passage, I would use one or the other rather than both to keep the animal alusion clear.

As for the race gender stuff, I get what is happening. It isn't so much a story problem as much a point which takes you out of the story because the narrative focus seems to have a concern that is anachronistic. It makes the action not seem "period". Same as if the characters had a preoccupation with "world peace" or "workers' rights".


My suggestion would be to make the insults a little less on the nose "where's the gentleman who escorted her?", or make the commentary less insulting and more objectifying her as an exotic sight, or simply uncouth. Whatever you decide, it currently is a distraction through almost the entire passage. I'm not some anti-woke moron, and I doubt Toby is either - and we both noticed this independently.

The religion thing I mentioned was not to suggest the Catholics were intolerant, but that the Vestal feels a certain lack of respect due to her awareness of her power and her audience's obliviousness to her greatness. There is a little of that in the passage already, and it would be another avenue to expand on if you are looking to dilute the "issue".

 

[Toby Frost]

It makes the action not seem "period". Same as if the characters had a preoccupation with "world peace" or "workers' rights".

Good point: I'm not sure if feminism - as in a general concern for women - would have existed back then. There might be concern for "sisters of the order" or something like that, but given the general contempt for humanity of the time (I expect "humanity" barely existed as an idea, too) I think it would be very limited.

I've got this feeling that every period in history generates its own myths/stereotypes for fantasy writers, and feminism isn't quite in it yet (although Mary Wollstonecraft must be around back then). Perhaps the rights of women would be lumped in with "weird stuff religious dissenters/the French do" in the popular imagination, or something like that.

Slightly random thought: I was reading some Raymond Chandler recently and it struck me that although Marlowe never says anything political and shows no aim of changing the system, he's fundamentally concerned with "the little guy" and "giving people a break". Maybe it's just that, in a world run by A-holes, not being an A-hole looks like a daring act.

I'm not some anti-woke moron, and I doubt Toby is either

[Shakes fist at the youth of today and their terrible youth things!]

 

[The Judge]

... feminism isn't quite in it yet (although Mary Wollstonecraft must be around back then). Perhaps the rights of women would be lumped in with "weird stuff religious dissenters/the French do" in the popular imagination, or something like that.

Thoughts on the Education of Daughters is published in 1787, with A Vindication of the Rights of Women following in 1892, so though "feminism" isn't a word in the C18th, there are certainly people who are actively considering the role of women in sociery and their rights at this time, even if nothing seems to happen for some considerable time.

And, of course, I'm writing alt-history fantasy, so who knows what my Vestals may have been stirring up...

 

[HareBrain]

who knows what my Vestals may have been stirring up...

A bit OT, but the (unintended, I hope) image that jumped to my mind here was a cauldron of Vesta chow mein. On a bit of a nostalgia trip, I then googled the product, assuming it had disappeared with the 1970s -- only to find they're still selling it!

 

[Pyan]

A bit OT, but the (unintended, I hope) image that jumped to my mind here was a cauldron of Vesta chow mein. On a bit of a nostalgia trip, I then googled the product, assuming it had disappeared with the 1970s -- only to find they're still selling it!

I still remember the excitement of watching the rock-hard little strips of dried flat noodles expand hugely and fill with tasty crunchyness when dropped into hot fat.

 

[HareBrain]

I still remember the excitement of watching the rock-hard little strips of dried flat noodles expand hugely and fill with tasty crunchyness when dropped into hot fat.

I know! The magical entrancement was like finding Father Christmas had been. Thinking about it, it was probably a (vain) attempt to recapture that sense of awe and wonder that got me into fantasy.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I just want to say I've only just read this and thought it was brilliant.

I saw it come up before but I wasn't in mind to read anything long, so my apologies for being late.

As it stands I found it technically brilliant, there was a wonderful sense of voice, and the details were wonderful.

Sure, I was a little confused about POV use a couple of sentences into the second section but it all became very clear very quickly. I take it as a mark of good writing that the reader needs to take a moment to orientate with a strong new novel, whether by Margaret Atwood, Mary Renault, or even John Le Carre.

Personally I would suggest the most criticisms so far are due to personal taste, and from people who might not normally read such a novel, so to not take them too much to heart. Personally I think you have something precious here and would encourage you to continue as is.

Of course, this is just my own personal opinion, but I think you've captured an intriguing mood very well and I would think there would be real professional interest for something like this.

 

[Bowler1]

You picked an interesting section to post and are playing with - it's unusual.

The POV switches are demanding, short sections from one POV to another, which are pushing the reader to keep up. There is enough of what is happening here to have captured my interest and I think it's very well written, but hard to catch up with initally. To be fair the section does work and gets a lot of information out quickly, while not feeling like it does on a first read through. I think the issue I have most of all is not connecting to any individual character, and if there is a main character for the book in this section possibly highlighting this character a little more in this section, or my view at least. The risk of POV shifts is losing character(s) focus, but your experiment is still an interesting read showing very good skill.

Anyway I'm stuck sitting on the fence with this section, so much so I have splinters to show for my indecision. Technically I like it, it does draw me in but you have not hooked me in because I failed to connect with the inner thoughts of any single character. No doubt resolved as you move on with the storyline. Very interesting and thanks for sharing - you have set yourself a challenge with your choice of style here and good luck with it.