August Reading Thread

[Dave]

I've begun reading Nobody Walks by Mick Herron - a stand alone book in his Slough House series. (It's a back story for a character who I already know what happens to.) It's short so I'll fit it in amongst all the TV I'm watching. I still have the rest of the Slough House series and the rest of the Dark Tower series to read, and some other books. I've never had a pile of TBR before like others here do, and now my pile is only growing higher!

 

[Stephen Palmer]

@Stephen Palmer By 'TBOTNS', do you mean The Book of the New Sun? Until you mentioned it, I hadn't heard of it, though I read now that it's the series Wolfe is most famous for! ) I also didn't know of the existence of The Book of the Short Sun! But since that series is set after the stories in Long Sun, I reckon I'd better stick with that for a bit!

I used to call TBOTNS the greatest SF book. I still think that, though these days i put it alongside Helliconia and Dune. It will be interesting to read what you think of Long Sun! For further context, google Ultan's Library.

 

[Peppa]

@strawman and @Peppa or anyone else!

I keep hovering over buying The Word for World is Forest but keep thinking it sounds like it's just going over the same ground as H Beam Piper's Little Fuzzy and John Scalz's re-write, Fuzzy Nation. If anyone can convince me otherwise then I'll probably finally push the button on it!

To be honest, I've never promoted a book before, and promoting books by a classic author like Ursula Le Guin seems a bit odd to me.

Nevertheless, I'm going to give it a go.

So there are some important differences between The Word for World is Forest and Little Fuzzy.

Firstly, The Word for World is Forest is a much more adult, dark and realistic book than Little Fuzzy. It's like comparing The Hobbit and ASOIAF. Both are good books and both are fantasy with dragons, but both books are very different.

Secondly, there is another important difference. If I remember correctly, in Little Fuzzy the humans didn't realize at first that the little furry creatures were also quite intelligent. Once they realized that, they began to change their attitude towards them. But in The Word for World is Forest, the humans realize that the Athsheans are a perfectly intelligent species, but that doesn't stop them. The humans simply see the Athsheans as inferior, in the same way that Nazis and racists see other nations and races as inferior.

So this is not a book about funny mistake, but about cruelty, arrogance and greed.

Thirdly, as I mentioned earlier, Ursula Le Guin was the daughter of two great anthropologists. So the clash of three very different societies - Hainites, Athsheans and Terrans - is presented at a high level that other writers can hardly ever achieve. It shows in great detail how different they are and how difficult it is for them to come to terms with each other.

In the episodes that focus on Raj Lyubov, the book in general turns into something like Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment, but with aliens. Okay, that sounds like a dumb joke, but in some episodes The Word for World is Forest rises to the level of psychological prose. Raj Lyubov doesn't struggle so much with other Terrans, like the Avatar guy, but with his own doubts, because he's a Terran too, and it's sometimes hard for him to see that the little green men have their own culture and deserve independence.

By the way, I want to thank everyone who liked my last post. I thought everyone was going to make fun of me for writing so much about this old book.

 

[Vertigo]

Ok that's interesting. Though I would say that there's plenty of greed in Little Fuzzy with the big business humans wanting to suppress the knowledge of the Fuzzies as intelligent so they could continue making so much money exploiting the planet.

But still, it sounds like Le Guin's goes in some slightly different directions. At her best Le Guin can be excellent. My favourite of hers that I've read is probably The Dispossessed, which I consider to be a masterpiece and way more important than The Left Hand of Darkness.

By the way, I want to thank everyone who liked my last post. I thought everyone was going to make fun of me for writing so much about this old book.

I wouldn't worry about that, most of us really appreciate anyone who can be bothered to write a bit about the books they've read. Posts that just list the titles of read books are really not of much use (or interest) to everyone else!

If you want to write bigger reviews then there is a reviews section of the Chrons. I used to put reviews in there and then link to them from the monthly threads, but to be honest I'm not that good at bigger reviews, so now I just generally write a paragraph here for each book!

And thanks for the comprehensive response!

 

[Toby Frost]

I wrote a review of The Word for World is Forest a while back: The Word For World Is Forest, by Ursula Le Guin. It's pretty good, although it's very "on the nose" and the use of some of its imagery and theme in bigger pop culture has lessened its effect a little (which isn't Le Guin's fault). I didn't think it was telling me anything especially new, apart from the interesting bits and pieces of the Athshe culture, but it is definitely a good book.

It's also very short, and you could read it in an afternoon.

I'm not sure about the Slough House books. I read the first four or five, and felt "I've done this now" and stopped.

 

[Peppa]

I wouldn't worry about that, most of us really appreciate anyone who can be bothered to write a bit about the books they've read. Posts that just list the titles of read books are really not of much use (or interest) to everyone else!

If you want to write bigger reviews then there is a reviews section of the Chrons. I used to put reviews in there and then link to them from the monthly threads, but to be honest I'm not that good at bigger reviews, so now I just generally write a paragraph here for each book!

And thanks for the comprehensive response!

You're welcome. It's good to know there's a review section, because I recently read a great fantasy book. I'd like to chat about it, but it's a new book and not many people know about it. So I have very few fellow fans to chat to. Actually, I don't have any because the guy who told me about that book isn't very chatty by nature.

So I can write a review, encourage other people to read it and then have fellow fans to chat to.

And I should have known that people who read books are unlikely to be put off by my long posts.

Ok that's interesting. Though I would say that there's plenty of greed in Little Fuzzy with the big business humans wanting to suppress the knowledge of the Fuzzies as intelligent so they could continue making so much money exploiting the planet.

But still, it sounds like Le Guin's goes in some slightly different directions. At her best Le Guin can be excellent. My favourite of hers that I've read is probably The Dispossessed, which I consider to be a masterpiece and way more important than The Left Hand of Darkness.

Of course there's a lot of greed in Little Fuzzy too, but the two books are still very different. But if I start explaining it in detail, I'll just retell The Word for World is Forest, and you won't be interested in reading it.

The Left Hand of Darkness is really overrated. Sure, it's a great book, but Ursula Le Guin has other great books. And it really pisses me off when certain girls write very vulgar fanfics about her characters.

The Dispossessed is another great book. It's also about different cultures and societies clashing, only in this case they belong to the same alien species.

I'm also very like Rocannon's World. It's more poetic than serious, but it has its great qualities. But I'd rather not be asked about Rocannon's World at all, I could easily write a dozen pages about it.

 

[HareBrain]

Still going with The Wounded Land. Typical of Stephen Donaldson's Covenant Chronicles, it has episodes of rare, possibly unique imaginative power surrounded by sludge, and the former are worth putting up with the latter, but barely. I can still see why the series captivated me in my long-ago youth, but I don't know if I'll carry on after this one. I recall The One Tree as being an ordeal by tedium.

My parallel read, which by contrast I have no trouble recommending: Running Up That Hill, 50 Visions of Kate Bush, by Tom Doyle.

 

[Peppa]

I wrote a review of The Word for World is Forest a while back: The Word For World Is Forest, by Ursula Le Guin. It's pretty good, although it's very "on the nose" and the use of some of its imagery and theme in bigger pop culture has lessened its effect a little (which isn't Le Guin's fault). I didn't think it was telling me anything especially new, apart from the interesting bits and pieces of the Athshe culture, but it is definitely a good book.

It's also very short, and you could read it in an afternoon.

I'm not sure about the Slough House books. I read the first four or five, and felt "I've done this now" and stopped.

This book was written in the last century. Perhaps some of its themes seemed very fresh and unusual at the time.

 

[Randy M.]

This book was written in the last century. Perhaps some of its themes seemed very fresh and unusual at the time.

I haven't read it, but even at the time reviews suggested it was a bit on the nose. I was never sure if that was the case, or whether it was disappointing to some reviewers because they were expecting another The Left Hand of Darkness or The Dispossessed.

 

[Peppa]

I haven't read it, but even at the time reviews suggested it was a bit on the nose. I was never sure if that was the case, or whether it was disappointing to some reviewers because they were expecting another The Left Hand of Darkness or The Dispossessed.

It's quite possible. But it's still a pretty good book.

 

[Toby Frost]

This book was written in the last century. Perhaps some of its themes seemed very fresh and unusual at the time.

Well exactly.

 

[Peppa]

Well exactly.

So we run into the vintage sci-fi problem, which has already been discussed here.

 

[Dave Vicks]

@Peppa Anything without a smart phone is old

 

[hitmouse]

I used to call TBOTNS the greatest SF book. I still think that, though these days i put it alongside Helliconia and Dune. It will be interesting to read what you think of Long Sun! For further context, google Ultan's Library.

Reading Shadow of the Torturer for the first time was one of the seminal SF experiences for me. Almost nothing has lived up to that. TBOTNS as a whole is wonderful.
I came to Long Sun a couple of decades later and really enjoyed it, especially the first book. I found Short Sun to be much harder work.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Reading Shadow of the Torturer for the first time was one of the seminal SF experiences for me. Almost nothing has lived up to that. TBOTNS as a whole is wonderful.
I came to Long Sun a couple of decades later and really enjoyed it, especially the first book. I found Short Sun to be much harder work.

Although I much preferred the first two volumes of Short Sun to any in Long Sun, actually Short Sun was a dnf for me. Looking back now, from a much older perspective, TBOTNS seems rather spoiled by the following series. TBOTNS is simply unique. I do think The Urth Of The New Sun is marvellous, and matches the quartet.

 

[Elentarri]

Mohammed and Charlemagne by Henri Pirenne [history]

This is a first draft completed just days before the author died in May 1935, and subsequently published by his son in 1937. Henri Pirenne's hypothesis places the pivotal historical moment that splits the ancient and medieval worlds at the rise and spread of Islam in the 7th century B.C., rather than at the barbarian invasions (which is the usual designated culprit).

Before the Islamic conquests, the Roman world (including the former barbarians) essentially fringed the Mediterranean Sea, was centered on it, and made use of travel on it to connect the various widely spread regions via a shared culture, administration, and through trade. According to Pirenne, the barbarians made themselves part of the Roman world rather than replacing it. The Roman world of the 5th and 6th centuries were still focused on the Mediterranean, administrative systems, taxation, and laws still followed that of the Roman Empire, trade routes continued, and the barbarian kings still considered themselves vassals of the Byzantine emperor (more or less).

However, after the Islamic conquests and the spread of Islam, large portions of the land surrounding the Mediterranean, as well as the Sea itself, were no longer freely accessible or in possession of the Roman world, severing routes of trade and communication. Byzantium was no longer able to protect its assets to the west. This resulted in a political shift to the north. Once the papacy formed an defense alliance with the Carolingians, the medieval era had truly begun - an era forming a new way of life in which royal and religious power were no longer separate, foreign trade was diminished, agriculture and land ownership becoming the central means of wealth, and the development of a feudal society. Pirenne claims that without Mohammed, Charlemagne would be inconceivable.

This is an interesting hypothesis, albeit not without problems. After all, a few centuries of almost constant warfare do have an impact. Nicely written and well argued. It would be nice to see an updated version, which is why the next history book on my list is Mohammed and Charlemagne Revisited by Emmet Scott.​

 

[Orcadian]

My favourite of [Le Guin's] that I've read is probably The Dispossessed, which I consider to be a masterpiece and way more important than The Left Hand of Darkness.

We may have had this exchange before! But I agree that The Dispossessed is Le Guin's masterpiece. From a review I wrote in the 1990s, after being blown away by it:

The Dispossessed is one of a handful of books that shaped me and deepened my understanding of what it is to be a human being. Despite winning both the Hugo and Nebula awards, it is less famous than 'The Left Hand of Darkness' - but a work of far greater depth, scope and power. We are shown what a society could be like if the idealistic principles of Communism really worked. We see the sacrifices people are prepared to make, freely, because they believe in a system that lives by sharing equally what little there is. We come to understand that Capitalism and Communism can each exist only by setting itself apart from the other. And as a bonus, through the novel weaves the gold thread of a heartbreaking love story - not the shallow, passionate kind we may be accustomed to reading about, but real, adult love.

 

[Peppa]

We may have had this exchange before! But I agree that The Dispossessed is Le Guin's masterpiece. From a review I wrote in the 1990s, after being blown away by it:

The Dispossessed is one of a handful of books that shaped me and deepened my understanding of what it is to be a human being. Despite winning both the Hugo and Nebula awards, it is less famous than 'The Left Hand of Darkness' - but a work of far greater depth, scope and power. We are shown what a society could be like if the idealistic principles of Communism really worked. We see the sacrifices people are prepared to make, freely, because they believe in a system that lives by sharing equally what little there is. We come to understand that Capitalism and Communism can each exist only by setting itself apart from the other. And as a bonus, through the novel weaves the gold thread of a heartbreaking love story - not the shallow, passionate kind we may be accustomed to reading about, but real, adult love.

What struck me about this book was how difficult it can be for a person to adapt to a society that is very different from the one they grew up in, and how different societies can be in general.

Mohammed and Charlemagne by Henri Pirenne [history]

This is a first draft completed just days before the author died in May 1935, and subsequently published by his son in 1937. Henri Pirenne's hypothesis places the pivotal historical moment that splits the ancient and medieval worlds at the rise and spread of Islam in the 7th century B.C., rather than at the barbarian invasions (which is the usual designated culprit).

Before the Islamic conquests, the Roman world (including the former barbarians) essentially fringed the Mediterranean Sea, was centered on it, and made use of travel on it to connect the various widely spread regions via a shared culture, administration, and through trade. According to Pirenne, the barbarians made themselves part of the Roman world rather than replacing it. The Roman world of the 5th and 6th centuries were still focused on the Mediterranean, administrative systems, taxation, and laws still followed that of the Roman Empire, trade routes continued, and the barbarian kings still considered themselves vassals of the Byzantine emperor (more or less).

However, after the Islamic conquests and the spread of Islam, large portions of the land surrounding the Mediterranean, as well as the Sea itself, were no longer freely accessible or in possession of the Roman world, severing routes of trade and communication. Byzantium was no longer able to protect its assets to the west. This resulted in a political shift to the north. Once the papacy formed an defense alliance with the Carolingians, the medieval era had truly begun - an era forming a new way of life in which royal and religious power were no longer separate, foreign trade was diminished, agriculture and land ownership becoming the central means of wealth, and the development of a feudal society. Pirenne claims that without Mohammed, Charlemagne would be inconceivable.

This is an interesting hypothesis, albeit not without problems. After all, a few centuries of almost constant warfare do have an impact. Nicely written and well argued. It would be nice to see an updated version, which is why the next history book on my list is Mohammed and Charlemagne Revisited by Emmet Scott.​

I think this is a really interesting book, although every historical event usually has more than one cause. I don't know how to put it, but when studying history it is better to use the preposition "and" rather than the preposition "or". Any society is usually influenced by a whole range of different factors - political, economic and even natural.

But this book feels very old. I suppose historians have had a lot of information since then - for example, through archaeological digs and more modern study of the artefacts found.

For example, historians have been arguing for almost two hundred years about whether the European Avars were descended from the Asian Xionbei. Now, geneticists and anthropologists have studied the skeletons and skulls of the Avars (presumably pure-blooded Avars, who are hard to find because they quickly mixed with Europeans) and found that the Avars were most likely descended from the Xionbei.

In any case, even an outdated book can be useful for learning the historiography of a subject. It's like in court, when the judge has to listen carefully to all sides.

 

[Elentarri]

I think this is a really interesting book, although every historical event usually has more than one cause. I don't know how to put it, but when studying history it is better to use the preposition "and" rather than the preposition "or". Any society is usually influenced by a whole range of different factors - political, economic and even natural.

But this book feels very old. I suppose historians have had a lot of information since then - for example, through archaeological digs and more modern study of the artefacts found.

Agree about multiple causes or influences affecting historical events, rather than just one thing. It is an old book. But I have had Mohammed and Charlemagne Revisited by Emmet Scott for ages and decided that needed to be read. But it would probably be helpful to read the first book first, hence the Mohammed and Charlemagne by Henri Pirenne read.

 

[Peppa]

Agree about multiple causes or influences affecting historical events, rather than just one thing. It is an old book. But I have had Mohammed and Charlemagne Revisited by Emmet Scott for ages and decided that needed to be read. But it would probably be helpful to read the first book first, hence the Mohammed and Charlemagne by Henri Pirenne read.

This is precisely the case when it is necessary to study the historiography of the subject. You won't understand author #2's arguments if you don't study well the arguments of author #1 to which author #1 objects.
I don't know much about the wars between Byzantium and the Arabs. I am mainly interested in the history of Central and East Asia, pre-Columbian Mesoamerica and the steppes of Eurasia. But the situation where different historians have different views on the same problem is very common.
Oh, and it would be strange not to read a book you've had for so long. Poor book, its sad fate really reminds me of Sleeping Beauty.