Pace and prose

[yorelm]

I tend to agree with Swank's assessments since most of what was stated was why I found the story difficult to follow. My eyes didn't flow easily across the words in a way that I was more involved with the story than trying to figure out the text. I wasn't "pulled in." I didn't go any further in my original comment because of this in your OP: 1) Is this a style of interest to you?

I assumed yours was an intentional choice, and since it wasn't of my personal preference, I didn't feel I should comment any further. I said to myself, "I'm probably not his specific audience, so I'll be of little use."
Had you not specifically mentioned #1, I would have gone further.

I did noticed that all positive replies received acknowledgement, but the non-complimentary ones were skipped. So that made me feel I offered no value anyway.

I also agree that dyslexia can understandably as make writing more of a challenge, but if this is something you seriously want to pursue, it can't be an excuse. I don't see any reason you can't conquer it, esp since the writing wasn't "bad," just hard for me to parse.

 

[THX1138]

I see it as both, a chain and ball for now, but also, once I am able to write effectively, my edge.

Absolutely, mate! Lexdexia, I mean, dyslexia can be both a friend and foe in writing. (and yes, 3mins to write this )

 

[THX1138]

I also agree that dyslexia can understandably as make writing more of a challenge, but if this is something you seriously want to pursue, it can't be an excuse. I don't see any reason you can't conquer it, esp since the writing wasn't "bad," just hard for me to parse.

For me, it's a reason to push myself. There are good moments and bad moments., but I find that my writing is more 'thought out' somehow during the bad times when it takes me the longest to write/edit. Go figure.

 

[yorelm]

For me, it's a reason to push myself. There are good moments and bad moments., but I find that my writing is more 'thought out' somehow during the bad times when it takes me the longest to write/edit. Go figure.

I can see I had a "moment" myself after re-reading my first sentence. Think I left something out.

 

[The Judge]

I did noticed that all positive replies received acknowledgement, but the non-complimentary ones were skipped.

With my critiquer's hat on, I have to say that's unfair. My posts made it clear that Paul needed to do more work on the piece while Christine said much the same and neither of us complimented him, and amid some compliments C.S made specific points which indicated there were problems with phraseology, and all of our posts were acknowledged.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


And with my Mod's hat on, a general reminder to potential critiquers, and indeed every member -- and this is something which pertains to every thread here on Chrons and which we perhaps should have reminded everyone last year -- very often it is not what is said that is a problem, ie the point which is made, but the way in which it is said.

A critique can be 100% correct, but if the tone of it is questionable, the advice and suggestions made are likely to be ignored, meaning it's a complete waste of time and effort on the part of the critiquer. It isn't necessary to sugar-coat what is said or offer praise which isn't due, but it is necessary to keep in mind that attitude and tone can be easily misinterpreted, making posts perhaps appear arrogant and overbearing when that is not the intention. (And if we ever think that it was the intention, members will find themselves in trouble.)

 

[THX1138]

very often it is not what is said that is a problem, ie the point which is made, but the way in which it is said.

Guilty of that here. Very sorry to everyone on my part.

 

[Swank]

A critique can be 100% correct, but if the tone of it is questionable, the advice and suggestions made are likely to be ignored, meaning it's a complete waste of time and effort on the part of the critiquer. It isn't necessary to sugar-coat what is said or offer praise which isn't due, but it is necessary to keep in mind that attitude and tone can be easily misinterpreted, making posts perhaps appear arrogant and overbearing when that is not the intention. (And if we ever think that it was the intention, members will find themselves in trouble.)

Please delete my posts in this thread. Thank you.

 

[Paul Meccano]

I tend to agree with Swank's assessments since most of what was stated was why I found the story difficult to follow. My eyes didn't flow easily across the words in a way that I was more involved with the story than trying to figure out the text. I wasn't "pulled in." I didn't go any further in my original comment because of this in your OP: 1) Is this a style of interest to you?

I assumed yours was an intentional choice, and since it wasn't of my personal preference, I didn't feel I should comment any further. I said to myself, "I'm probably not his specific audience, so I'll be of little use."
Had you not specifically mentioned #1, I would have gone further.

I did noticed that all positive replies received acknowledgement, but the non-complimentary ones were skipped. So that made me feel I offered no value anyway.

I also agree that dyslexia can understandably as make writing more of a challenge, but if this is something you seriously want to pursue, it can't be an excuse. I don't see any reason you can't conquer it, esp since the writing wasn't "bad," just hard for me to parse.

I’m happy to receive a No as well as a Yes.
I often find it difficult to know what’s correct, not just what’s wrong. Not that correct is easy to define. It’s probably harder to identify when it comes to writing, other than lathering in broad-paintbrush statements.
If I have missed answering any reply’s then, honestly, it’s because I’m on my phone until next week, and theses threads are often hard to follow, nothing to do with my preference on good or bad critique. Sorry if I missed anything. That said, personally I do feel it’s good to say what’s good about a piece, especially if there are obvious aspects that do require work. Otherwise it can be a little overwhelming (for someone like me, that is)
I do my best.

Thanks for your input, it takes time and I’m grateful for that.

 

[Paul Meccano]

A friend of mine is a painter. He is color blind. He doesn't tell any of his potential clients he is color blind because that has nothing to do with whether the painting is good or not, or whether they should buy one. There are no galleries for the color blind or publishers for the dyslexic.

I didn't come over to make fun of you. I spent half an hour writing up examples to demonstrate the pitfalls and cures for your invented writing style, which aren't at all different from many other aspiring writers' sentence problems. The only thing that is shared between the two threads is that you tend to lack a certain concreteness that makes it hard to follow your meaning. And I don't know if that is simply a style problem or that you are conceptualizing things that I can't understand.

My critiques are generally like this. Plenty of other people gave you warm, snuggly words of encouragement. But you are here asking for help improving, and that doesn't come from being told you did a good job; considering your disabilities. You are fully capable of writing very well, and I gave you some things to think about as you craft more of these obviously carefully styled sentences.

But I will bow out if this process upsets you.

I appreciate your time.

Thank you

 

[Phyrebrat]

I work with dyslexic kids in schools and they find (as do I, altho I'm not dyslexic) reading their work aloud before they submit it helps them find problems where they would otherwise be blind to them; this could also be a friend, family member. Reading aloud really helps you find a more pleasing 'flow' and highlights when you've over-written something, or gone too far on parenthetical thoughts.

Obviously if you struggle with dyslexia, it's going to be hard enough to read out your own work, so maybe get someone else to read them to you in short snippets at a time.

Re this crit, I'll admit I stopped reading it early on because I felt it wasn't ready for crit as it wasn't polished enough, (and as Swank has already said), there were too many challenges for me when it came to parsing certain clauses. I felt that you were over-writing, and could be a lot more economic without losing the novelty of the story.

However, on the plus side, now you have a great set of targets!!

(FWIW I'd never written anything till I joined Chrons and now I'm bloody brilliant (as many noted literary commentators have, er, commentated... ) . I have ADHD btw which comes attendant with RSD (rejection sensitive dysphoria) so I have to manage my emotions quite strongly if I sub to a crit here. Not because I've had bad crits or what have you, but because irrespective of what the critter intends, I always feel ashamed (and hurt!) if I make a mistake. I tell myself that without facial and verbal cues, it's easy to take things negatively. The other thing is I've know these reprobates for years and know that no one here intends harm or viciousness towards others; my interactions with Swank have been lovely in PM and as I'm a fan of tough love (go figure, as they say...) I appreciate his no-nonsense approach. I also know there are things I have said in the past when critting others which have been harsh and will be more mindful of that from now on.)

 

[Paul Meccano]

I work with dyslexic kids in schools and they find (as do I, altho I'm not dyslexic) reading their work aloud before they submit it helps them find problems where they would otherwise be blind to them; this could also be a friend, family member. Reading aloud really helps you find a more pleasing 'flow' and highlights when you've over-written something, or gone too far on parenthetical thoughts.

Obviously if you struggle with dyslexia, it's going to be hard enough to read out your own work, so maybe get someone else to read them to you in short snippets at a time.

Re this crit, I'll admit I stopped reading it early on because I felt it wasn't ready for crit as it wasn't polished enough, (and as Swank has already said), there were too many challenges for me when it came to parsing certain clauses. I felt that you were over-writing, and could be a lot more economic without losing the novelty of the story.

However, on the plus side, now you have a great set of targets!!

(FWIW I'd never written anything till I joined Chrons and now I'm bloody brilliant (as many noted literary commentators have, er, commentated... ) . I have ADHD btw which comes attendant with RSD (rejection sensitive dysphoria) so I have to manage my emotions quite strongly if I sub to a crit here. Not because I've had bad crits or what have you, but because irrespective of what the critter intends, I always feel ashamed (and hurt!) if I make a mistake. I tell myself that without facial and verbal cues, it's easy to take things negatively. The other thing is I've know these reprobates for years and know that no one here intends harm or viciousness towards others; my interactions with Swank have been lovely in PM and as I'm a fan of tough love (go figure, as they say...) I appreciate his no-nonsense approach. I also know there are things I have said in the past when critting others which have been harsh and will be more mindful of that from now on.)

I appreciate the feedback.
Genuinely, I hear you and am grateful.
I’m also ADD and struggle with the same.
I will be reading aloud more often.
As well as dyslexia, I didn’t finish school, so I’ve got to where I am now for putting in some very hard work. I don’t need patting, I do deserve love and care from all who choose to crit.
Not polished enough is a misnomer for me (I may have the word wrong but it seems to fit). I wouldn’t know what was correct and what wasn’t.
Tough love is a patriarchal term. I appreciate the sentiment and will respect the group ideal in future.
As well as criticism I do also need positive feedback, mostly because I don’t actually know right from wrong when it comes to writing (everything I present here is self taught).
So, without any family or others able to give valuable feedback in, perhaps, a more progressive way, and without funds to pay for tuition, this place and other forums (often less helpful, due to the calibre of writers like me) is all I have.
I’m sorry if I have offended. Like your friends here, I’m actually a very supportive and caring person who (my own oxygen mask on first) likes nothing more than to help others.

 

[Phyrebrat]

Nice one! No need to apologise either — not to me at least.

(ADD/ADHD such fun when it comes to executive function, eh? I wasn’t diagnosed till 2022 when I was 50 and it’s pretty much all I can talk about now. But I wonder if I had the choice to be neurotypical if I’d take it. The plus sides of ADHD/ADD are really good!)

 

[Paul Meccano]

So, Swanky one:

I’m sorry if I offended you.
I did say that I was grateful for your time and meant it; anyone who takes the time to help is a blessing, and so you are – even if you are a little overwhelming for me to hold.
I have a blind friend too.
I have the chance to learn to overcome my issues, but I do need more than some support! If that’s not you you don’t need to comment, there are enough people here and I don’t expect it. I won’t comment on your own threads now, not unless I feel it’s helpful or am asked. I hope to be more humble as I post on other threads while you too are there.
Sending love your way, hoping this tussle may bring with it a glimmer of friendship.
X

 

[Paul Meccano]

Absolutely, mate! Lexdexia, I mean, dyslexia can be both a friend and foe in writing. (and yes, 3mins to write this )

Smelling problems are the brain of my life. That and lolloping text.

 

[Toby Frost]

A critique can be 100% correct, but if the tone of it is questionable, the advice and suggestions made are likely to be ignored, meaning it's a complete waste of time and effort on the part of the critiquer.

The problem with the "tough love" school of criticism is that many new writers seem to find that the stronger and more confident the critique, the more they feel that they have to act on it. Deciding when and how to respond to criticism is a skill in itself.

My main piece of advice is that, fairly or not, the passage feels as if the OP is trying too hard to sound "like a writer". There's a certain wordiness to some of it that probably comes from the complex sentence structure. This, for example, is hard to follow:

Dragged free, he arrived at a grassy bank scattered with garbage, where teeth clenched from chattering, that waking arm cradled and falling to his knees

I'm not sure what the subject of the sentence is. It seems to be Mattesh, then some teeth (it's not clear enough that they're his teeth) and then a waking arm. It's also hard to work out in what order all these things are happening.

I think it would work better if it was simpler, which means expressing the same ideas in less clauses and shorter sentences. So you might write something like "He was dragged free. Eventually, he reached a grassy bank scattered with garbage. His teeth chattered. He cradled his arm as it woke and fell to his knees." It's not perfect but it feels clearer and there is a clear sequence to the events of the sentence.

That said, it's quite a hard piece to critique, at least at the beginning, because it's about someone coming to, possibly not yet fully aware. I agree that it could probably be shortened, but that might be what happens in the editing stage.

 

[Paul Meccano]

Nice one! No need to apologise either — not to me at least.

(ADD/ADHD such fun when it comes to executive function, eh? I wasn’t diagnosed till 2022 when I was 50 and it’s pretty much all I can talk about now. But I wonder if I had the choice to be neurotypical if I’d take it. The plus sides of ADHD/ADD are really good!)

So much fun;0)
I’m 54 now, didn't know I was ADD (there is a school that says the H isn’t required, it’s all the same apparently; quote: Garbor Maté) until I became a life coach in 2020…. I’ll leave that hanging. I’m unabashedly me these days, knowing I’m doing the best I can with my shadow side. I love to help others, even once learning I was a people pleaser many years ago. I stopped for a while and regretted it.
I don’t generally label myself, not until I come across The, General. Public. I find it helps ground all involved.
We each have our shadows; rarely do people take time to look at the pain; many hide the pain well.
Love and best.
Thanks for the support
X

 

[Paul Meccano]

The problem with the "tough love" school of criticism is that many new writers seem to find that the stronger and more confident the critique, the more they feel that they have to act on it. Deciding when and how to respond to criticism is a skill in itself.

My main piece of advice is that, fairly or not, the passage feels as if the OP is trying too hard to sound "like a writer". There's a certain wordiness to some of it that probably comes from the complex sentence structure. This, for example, is hard to follow:



I'm not sure what the subject of the sentence is. It seems to be Mattesh, then some teeth (it's not clear enough that they're his teeth) and then a waking arm. It's also hard to work out in what order all these things are happening.

I think it would work better if it was simpler, which means expressing the same ideas in less clauses and shorter sentences. So you might write something like "He was dragged free. Eventually, he reached a grassy bank scattered with garbage. His teeth chattered. He cradled his arm as it woke and fell to his knees." It's not perfect but it feels clearer and there is a clear sequence to the events of the sentence.

That said, it's quite a hard piece to critique, at least at the beginning, because it's about someone coming to, possibly not yet fully aware. I agree that it could probably be shortened, but that might be what happens in the editing stage.

No disrespect, but hard to critique may require asking the odd question?
I’m grateful, I see now how it is hard to critique this piece.
This may be my worst excerpt; I did have problems with formatting; I ran it through Grammarly before posting it; I made a mess of writing and presentation.
It’s not great.
I missed the odd sub coordinate and placed commas where I shouldn’t.
I’ll not post until It’s good enough next time.

Lessons in hand

 

[Ursa major]

reading their work aloud before they submit it helps them find problems where they would otherwise be blind to them

I first saw** this given as advice to authors in general, and it's true.

I suppose it's because the bit of you that reads the text silently is not the same bit of you that says the text out loud (a bit that can stumble over text that seemed to flow perfectly well when read silently) and not the same bit of you that hears what you are saying (which can both hear that stumbling as well as noticing other sorts of error).


** - If I recall correctly, it was on a blog by Anne Mini (called, I think, Author! Author!)


EDIT: I've just checked Anne Mini's blog, and she said, a few years back, that the blog had been hacked a few times -- e.g. the 2024 entry is in a foreign language (don't ask me which one) -- but adds that the archived entries before a certain date were okay. I note that the list of archived entries does not contain entries for the year she mentioned (2017) or the year before that. Thankfully, when I was reading her blog, it was long before the hacking became a problem.

 

[Brian G Turner]

@Paul Meccano - It's completely normal when someone starts writing that they try to write in a writerly way. In other words, putting on a voice to sound more writerly. The trouble is, it is usually hard to follow because sentence structures can end up really convoluted. I think that's the feedback you're getting here. And it has nothing to do with education or dyslexia - it's simply down to putting on a convoluted voice. What everyone has to learn is that they don't need to sound writerly, and to find their own voice - which means writing exactly in the same way they would normally write for non-writing projects - your own natural rhythms and patterns, etc. Compare your opening sentences in your piece to any of your replies in this thread - they are two totally different styles. The one you naturally write in is the best one to start writing in, and if you want to color your language from that you can. Anyway, although I appreciate that people can feel emotionally vulnerable posting their work up, it's also important to learn to grit your teeth and just take it, and not take issue with feedback. Therefore I'll close this thread so you can think over what you want to do in peace.