Feast Chapters

[Direwolf]

The most likely scenario I can see is the Vale falling into a struggle for power between Littlefinger, holding the Eyrie, and Bronze Yohn Royce contesting for supreme Lord of the Vale.

You may very well be right. Lysa's little kid is the rightfull ruler of the whole thing, but I don't think anyone will care. Littlefinger will have trouble securing leadership of the Vale (as well as anything else), but he's so good at pulling those strings behind the scene and playing off people's mistrust, that I think he'll be able to manage it. As for them following Sansa, I've gotten the impression that the Vale and the North have been friendly with one another for a long time. They saw Jon Arryn as a hero, and Ned I believe was a good friend of his. Those loyalties may still be there for Littlefinger to exploit.

As for Littlefinger himself, I don't think he's delusional, nor do I think he's a pawn. My feeling from the books is that he's a sociopath, and wanted Catelyn for the same reasons that he wants to rule. I think it's a game to him, and he wants to win... and so far, he's doing a pretty good job of it.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I agree that Littlefinger would have some issues with the Northmen, but I'm not so sure about the Lannisters. Sansa has never been much of a threat to them; she was always seen simply as a pawn. I think that Littlefinger would be able to finagle support out of the Lannisters- he's always been rather pliable, for a price. And for that matter, he knows very well that the loyalty of most men can be bought in some way or another. The lords of the Vale may be little Robert's loyal men, but Robert is in the clutches of Littlefinger for now.

 

[Direwolf]

I think the main reason Littlefinger has been able to finagle support out of the Lannisters is that the Lannisters have always been so desperate. War with the Tullys, war with the Starks, war with Renly, war with Stannis... but they're finally running out enemies. At this point, I think they can do pretty much whatever they want to do, with or without Littlefinger. The question is, what is there for Littlefinger to buy their loyalty with now? The power of the Vale? To what end?

 

[Jay]

You may very well be right. Lysa's little kid is the rightfull ruler of the whole thing,

That power is predicated on the fact that she was Jon Arynn's wife and little Ned was Jon Arynn's son. Some of us think it's Littlefinger's son.

 

[Blue Mythril]

But didn't Hoster Tully force an adoption? Wasn't that what his dying obsession with Tansy was hinting at?

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

(abortion, not adoption ) and yes, that is the implication.
But Lysa suggests that when Jon Arryn was the Kings Hand, she used her power to find Littlefinger, get him a place on the council and get him into her bed as her 'reward'.
This may even have started Littlefinger on the course of blackmail & manipulation himself, maybe he was blackmailed into Lysa's bed?

Just a thought

 

[Young Wolf]

but they're finally running out enemies. At this point, I think they can do pretty much whatever they want to do, with or without Littlefinger.

I don't know about that Direwolf, they still have to deal with the powerful houses of Highgarden and Sunspear. Though technically not enemies, they could easily become tired of Lannister schemes. The biggest enemies the Lannisters have right now however, are themselves. Dissention in the ranks may tear them apart.

 

[Direwolf]

Yes, Sunspear might definitely be a problem. I think I mentioned that somewhere earlier in this thread. But at this point, it seems like the Lannister-Highgarden alliance will be pretty steadfast, as Highgarden seem ready to marry into the throne one way or another. If Tommen becomes King, Margaery might find herself with a lot of influence, and by extension the Queen of Thorns as well. It would take some serious events to break that alliance apart... you know, the kind of events that have been occuring all throughout the three books... hmmm... I might want to rethink this.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I think the main reason Littlefinger has been able to finagle support out of the Lannisters is that the Lannisters have always been so desperate. War with the Tullys, war with the Starks, war with Renly, war with Stannis... but they're finally running out enemies. At this point, I think they can do pretty much whatever they want to do, with or without Littlefinger. The question is, what is there for Littlefinger to buy their loyalty with now? The power of the Vale? To what end?

The Lannisters may be running out of enemies, but they're also running out of family members as well. I think they'll have to maintain their friendships with those outside the family in order to keep their fingers in as many pies as they can.

Littlefinger is a very useful man. He has connections all over the place that would be useful to any ruler- especially one so desperate to keep her hooks in things as Cersei. Not to mention, he knows quite a few secrets. I think it would be prudent of Cersei to keep him as close at hand as possible... you know, the whole saying about keeping your friends close and your enemies closer?

 

[Young Wolf]

Littlefinger is a very useful man. He has connections all over the place that would be useful to any ruler- especially one so desperate to keep her hooks in things as Cersei. Not to mention, he knows quite a few secrets. I think it would be prudent of Cersei to keep him as close at hand as possible... you know, the whole saying about keeping your friends close and your enemies closer?

Hmmmm, you may have something there Cali girl. I've always thought that Howland Reed was the one with the most secrets to share, but now that I think about it, Littlefinger has had a hand in a few of GRRM more secretive plotlines (Who is Tansy, what happened when Catelyn was young, who killed Jon Arryn, Joffrey Lannister, etc.). I'm curious, does anyone know how he got the name Littlefinger?

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I'm curious, does anyone know how he got the name Littlefinger?

It's because his family holdings are on the smallest of The Fingers, points of land that jut out into the sea on the eastern shores of Westeros.

 

[Direwolf]

Wow, these are all really good points. This is a really interesting forum.

Anyhow, it seems to me that Littlefinger could definitely make himself useful anywhere. With his cunning, he could definitely take advantage of the Cersei/Kevan rivalry, or the Tyrell/Martell rivalry, or the power vacuum in the North, or the lack of leadership in the Vale. He has the means to involve himself anywhere, really, but not everywhere. His manipulation behind the scenes at Kings landing seemed at least partly dependent on his actual residence there, as would his consolidation of power in the Vale. Furthurmore, it was never clear how much of his ability to "motivate" people depended on the financial resources he had as master of coin, which he no longer has. He can blackmail with his secrets, but more and more of his secrets are about dead people, and you can't win a kingdom with blackmail.

Speaking of which, any thoughts on what his eventual goal is? Does he want to be king?

 

[Young Wolf]

Wow, these are all really good points. This is a really interesting forum.

Anyhow, it seems to me that Littlefinger could definitely make himself useful anywhere. With his cunning, he could definitely take advantage of the Cersei/Kevan rivalry, or the Tyrell/Martell rivalry, or the power vacuum in the North, or the lack of leadership in the Vale. He has the means to involve himself anywhere, really, but not everywhere. His manipulation behind the scenes at Kings landing seemed at least partly dependent on his actual residence there, as would his consolidation of power in the Vale. Furthurmore, it was never clear how much of his ability to "motivate" people depended on the financial resources he had as master of coin, which he no longer has. He can blackmail with his secrets, but more and more of his secrets are about dead people, and you can't win a kingdom with blackmail.

Speaking of which, any thoughts on what his eventual goal is? Does he want to be king?

Very interesting thoughts Direwolf. His eventual goal does seem to be to gain as much power as possible, but I don't think his delusions of grandeur stretches as far as the kingdom. Even he must realize he couldn't possibly demand such loyalty. He seems to not only revel in the current chaotic political climate, but also encourages it as much as he can by working behind the scenes. I think he enjoys the game itself more than when he actually wins.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Furthurmore, it was never clear how much of his ability to "motivate" people depended on the financial resources he had as master of coin, which he no longer has. He can blackmail with his secrets, but more and more of his secrets are about dead people, and you can't win a kingdom with blackmail.

Speaking of which, any thoughts on what his eventual goal is? Does he want to be king?

I think that Littlefinger's powers of motivation go beyond any wealth he can offer, although I do think he's extremely wealthy still, even though he doesn't have the kingdom's coin at his disposal. I think it's important to remember that he did start with next to nothing, so obviously that points towards some pretty great powers of persuasion. He's extremely clever and manipulative.

That being said, I don't think he aspires to be king. I think by now he's realized that being king doesn't necessary hold the type of power he wants- after all, look at Aerys, Tommen, Joffrey, and even Robert- they were all essentially glorified puppets (Tommen still is); the real power lies with the people who are more behind the scenes.

 

[Young Wolf]

the real power lies with the people who are more behind the scenes.

Very true, Varys the Spider is another one to keep an eye on. I haven't re-read in a while, where did we last leave him, is he still in King's Landing? Wouldn't it be cool if old Georgie boy pulled a fast one on us and gave him a POV? One can only imagine.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I believe Varys is either still lurking around King's Landing, or has escaped.

SPOILER:


The Cersei POV chapters in AFFC apparently reveal that Varys is nowhere to be found...

I doubt GRRM would give him a POV because he knows too much and it would give away a lot of mysteries that help to keep the plot rolling (same reason he won't use Howland Reed as a POV).

 

[monkeydude]

I personally think Brienne will be it. It seems like the perfect choice...

 

[Culhwch]

I believe Varys is either still lurking around King's Landing, or has escaped.

SPOILER:


The Cersei POV chapters in AFFC apparently reveal that Varys is nowhere to be found...

The last we saw of Varys he was helping Tyrion escape and trying (not very hard) to dissuade him from visiting (and subsequently and spectacularly killing) Tywin. And of course, as soon as the next dawn broke, and Tywin was found dead, with Tyrion missing - to whom would the mind immediately jump as an accomplice? The spider, the only man who knows all the secret ways through the Red Keep. So I'd say, with a city full of Lannisters under the command of Cersei and/or Kevan, he'd have been wise to go to ground. Though he is so profficient at disguises he could still be close to the action....

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

My thoughts exactly, Culhwch. He's worked too hard throughout the years to just abandon King's Landing now. I'll bet he's pulling puppet strings from another vantage point, as his little birds are not likely to have dispersed.

 

[Direwolf]

So I'd say, with a city full of Lannisters under the command of Cersei and/or Kevan, he'd have been wise to go to ground. Though he is so profficient at disguises he could still be close to the action....

I think it's likely. But he seems to have "little birds" everywhere, and could continue doing what he's doing (albeit less effectively) outside of King's Landing. Do you think he will openly offer his services to Dany at some point? Or will he continue to do it in secret? It seems clear to me that he's always been a Targaryen loyalist, based on what we know about his history with Aerys and Robert, and the conversation that Arya overheard between him and Illyrio in AGOT. None of the characters in the book seem to like or trust him, but in my opinion, he's pretty firmly in the "good guys" camp; he's actually one of my favorite characters in the books. And Dany's already got a few thousand eunuchs in her service, so why not one more?