The Hound

[Summer]

I'm wondering why GRRM describes the Hound like a perfect knight - he is cruel, loyal, honest, brave and he protects the innocent maids (Sansa +Arya). But he isn't a knight and he hates knights. I suspect GRRM invented for him an interesting future. What is your opinion?

 

[cymric]

I think it is all about irony here you have a scarred tormented man, sometimes cruel because of the abuses by his brother. This man exmeplifies the what a Knight should be...Loyal to his Lord, Gentle to Women, and deadly in combat...yet he hates Knights kinda of a thru the mirror darkly

 

[Brian G Turner]

The Hound is a great character - and as cymric points out, he does what a knight should be expected to do - though my impression is that he hates knights for their hypocrisy.

 

[Frey Slayer]

The Hound is definately one of my favorite characters. He really jumps off the page as a 3d character. I enjoy his cynical honesty in the way he views the world. I am certainly hoping for a lot more of Sandor Clegane!

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

The Hound is a great character - and as cymric points out, he does what a knight should be expected to do - though my impression is that he hates knights for their hypocrisy.

Agreed. Although the thing about the Hound is that he does what a knight should be expected to do, but without the pure motives of an ideal knight. He lusts after Sansa and rescues Arya with the hopes that it will fatten his purse. I'm not saying he doesn't have good intentions- just that they're clouded.

One major reason he hates knights: Gregor Clegane. Any title that conveys as much honor as "Ser" is hugely tarnished if it is freely given to a creature like him.

 

[Jay]

One major reason he hates knights: Gregor Clegane. Any title that conveys as much honor as "Ser" is hugely tarnished if it is freely given to a creature like him.

The nature of the duality of that is what makes it so interesting IMHO - as in many resepcts Gregor is the perfect knight. Brave, loyal bannerman, ruthless and more than capable in battle.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

The nature of the duality of that is what makes it so interesting IMHO - as in many resepcts Gregor is the perfect knight. Brave, loyal bannerman, ruthless and more than capable in battle.

Yes but we're forgetting the virtues that have (at least in our history, and in Sansa's songs) long been attributed to the best of knights. Chastity, truth, honor, mercy... the list goes on and on. I'd say Loras Tyrell is closer to the perfect knight (does it matter that he's batting for the other team, as they say?), whereas Gregor is more the perfect warrior.

 

[Jay]

Yes but we're forgetting the virtues that have (at least in our history, and in Sansa's songs) long been attributed to the best of knights.

Yes but those, as Sansa learns, by in large those stories are just fiction. Knights are often made on the battlefield, from some respects and certain smarter lords (like Tywin) I don't think they differentiate between a perfect warrior and a perfect knight.

In regards to Loras, since being a Knight, the majority of time implies some sort of vow with the Church (the difference between the men of the North and Knights (ser's). That in mind, I would think Loras is exactly the opposite of what a being a true Knight would be by strict definiton - even in Sansa's eyes if she knew he was a switch hitter

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Yes but those, as Sansa learns, by in large those stories are just fiction. Knights are often made on the battlefield, from some respects and certain smarter lords (like Tywin) I don't think they differentiate between a perfect warrior and a perfect knight.

I think we may have to agree to disagree here. Perhaps we have two completely different ideas of what a knight is- I'm going to go along with Sansa on the "true knight" thing. The stories may be fiction, but they demonstrate what a perfect knight should be. I don't think any real knight would stoop to the lows that Ser Gregor has gone to- torturing innocent commoners, killing defenseless babies, raping women- Gregor is a monster who is only useful for instilling fear in people. A knight, in every sense of the word, is a protector of the weak and innocent. And that is why I think Sandor scorns them so- because the majority of them don't even coming close to earning such a prestigious title. The only true knights are the men of the Kingsguard: the Sword of the Morning, for example. He exemplifies what a knight is and should be.

As for Loras, well- I'm not sure being homosexual makes him any less of a knight.

 

[WinterIsComing]

I agree with Arya...

but I look to The Morining Lord and Barriston the Bold as examples of good knights.

 

[Jay]

think we may have to agree to disagree here. Perhaps we have two completely different ideas of what a knight is- I'm going to go along with Sansa on the "true knight" thing. The stories may be fiction, but they demonstrate what a perfect knight should be. I don't think any real knight would stoop to the lows that Ser Gregor has gone to- torturing innocent commoners, killing defenseless babies, raping women- Gregor is a monster who is only useful for instilling fear in people. A knight, in every sense of the word, is a protector of the weak and innocent. And that is why I think Sandor scorns them so- because the majority of them don't even coming close to earning such a prestigious title.

I think we need to differentiate what a knight should be and what a knight is. How me or you may view what a knight is really irrelevant, all that matters is that we both know - The perfect knight (as Sansa see's it) does not exist. It is a notion that seems Martin has been drilling into us from the get go, Jamie explains it to Brienne, Sandor to Sansha, etc.

The only true knights are the men of the Kingsguard: the Sword of the Morning, for example. He exemplifies what a knight is and should be.

Such a statment is more apt to defend my statement - look at the Kingsguard now. These are characters we know, not ones based on the mythology looked back on by others thus far, of the past Kingsguard..

As for Loras, well- I'm not sure being homosexual makes him any less of a knight.

This was not to be a topical statement regarding our own time - clearly if it was known he was gay, he would not have been annoited, thus he would not be a knight (in most cases), the fact that he is a son of a powerful lord works in his favor, but how proud of his son would he be if he knew (assuming he didn't) that Loras is gay. It's hard to say, we saw has Sam Tarley's father treated him because he was fat and weak; I'm not quite sure what the stigma is attached would in Westeros related to homo-sexuals, particulary by Southern Lords.

If you are attributing your defintion of a Knight to Sansa's vision that clearly Loras does not qualify, except to again add depth to the notion that Sansa truly was blind, as we do know she thinks him the perfect knight - and is absolutely enthralled by him at that - the gay knight. Not like Sansa's tales I think.

I'm noy saying Loras's sexual choice has anything to with his ability to fight or carry out the duties of a knight we know he is a great warrior etc, although I suspect Garland to be his better) , I'm just saying he probably doesn't fit the mold of a Knight in one of Sansa's legends.


hmmm...does any of that make sense Sometimes the language barrier comes into play on topivs like this.

I agree with Arya...

but I look to The Morining Lord and Barriston the Bold as examples of good knights

For every Kingsguard you can name for proven virtue, I can name 2 that are proven not to be of worth by the same standards.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

How me or you may view what a knight is really irrelevant, all that matters is that we both know - The perfect knight (as Sansa see's it) does not exist.

Ah, see- that's where we disagree. I believe the perfect knight did/does exist. Barristan the Bold is a good example of one who still lives- he refused to soil the white cloak of the Kingsguard. Brienne is the perfect knight, for all that she lacks certain parts. And Loras Tyrell, regardless of what his father or the Seven think of his sexual preferences.

For every Kingsguard you can name for proven virtue, I can name 2 that are proven not to be of worth by the same standards.

As for that, I think that Jaime sees what the Kingsguard once was and what it has become, and I think he'll change that. If you recall, he returns to King's Landing only to find that in the White Book he is one of the few whose record is quite short and reflects dishonor.

 

[Frey Slayer]

Just to jump in with a quick point.

I tend to think of the notion of chivalry and knighthood as giving a person something to strive for, that is, few "true" knights are born. Most are made or are in the process of becoming.

Certainly there are few "perfect" knights who serve as role models for what a knight should be, but knighthood (in my mind) is a set of virtues one seeks to live by. Some struggle to live up to the standards more than others, but it is the struggle that makes the man.

The difference between a "true" knight in my mind, is where a person's head is when they go about their daily business. Gregor certainly does not aspire to be like Barriston, but Brienne and Loras do. Sandor (just guessing here) probably respects the virtues of being a knight, but seeing someone so base as his brother become one probably just reinforces his cynical view of the world.
Hope that makes sense. I can see what I want to say in my mind...sometimes its hard to get it out coherantly!

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Well said, Frey Slayer. I think that's something along the lines of what I was trying to stammer out in my previous posts, but I'm just not as eloquent as you are.

In the wise words of my roommate: "Some people have a way with words. Other people... erm... thingy."

 

[Frey Slayer]

LOL! thats exactly how I feel most of the time!

 

[Direwolf]

clearly if it was known he was gay, he would not have been annoited

I think people who do the annointing are often less principled than the knights themselves. Gregor was knighted because he was useful; Loras would be as well, regardless of other factors.

Such a statment is more apt to defend my statement - look at the Kingsguard now. These are characters we know, not ones based on the mythology looked back on by others thus far, of the past Kingsguard.

I agree with you there, people always romanticise the past. As a resident of the US, I've read about our national heroes, and realized many are scumbags. I doubt GRRM's world is any different. I'd wager that the percentage of knights who are good and noble is about the same as the percentage of all people who are good and noble.

 

[Jeroam]

This is one of the best discussions on the message board I've read here in a while. A lot of my own thoughts have already been expressed earlier on so I'm just going to make a few new points.
Ainulindale made an excellent observation that the Hound and Jaimie both serve as "harsh reality checks" to Sansa and Brienne. But Sansa is not the only character to ever hear the romantic songs and tales of the knights of old in Westeros. They've all heard them and they all know what grand ideals they're supposed to be upholding. Experience of the cruel day to day workings of the realm has lead both the Hound and Jaimie past their naivete leaving them harshly cynical and sarcastic in wit.
A number of times people have made points about the perceptions the characters themselves hold of the old stories and especially the vaunted reputation of the Kingsguard. One of my favorite chapters in Storm of Swords is Jaimie's last as he's reading through the White Book and sizing up the new kids. He does still hold onto some virtues and one of his heroes, a former legendary leader of the Kingsguard, is Dunk the Tall. So through the Hedge Knight novellas we do get to see both the idealized past and the actual events in parallel.
If Jaimie can choose to seek a kind of redemption, is it possible for the Hound to as well? I think maybe George is the only one who knows the answer to that.

 

[Frey Slayer]

Well said Jeroam and I agree with what you say, but I did want to make one comment about Brienne and Jaime.

It could just be my memory or my own prejudices imposed upon my reading of the material, but when Brienne, Jaime and the Frey cousin were travelling together I thought Brienne had an impact on Jaime's outlook rather than the other way around.
(Im rereading this book now so Ill know more as I get further)

My understanding (or memory of the events) was that Brienne reminded Jaime of what it meant to be a "knight", as her resolve to see him safely to King's Landing never wavered and Jaime went from loathing her to respecting her during the journey. Case in point was when she saved them from capture by the Tully ship, then swam back up to the boat. Jaime had the chance to strike her down with the oar but chose instead to pull her into the craft. Grudgingly over time he began to have a great deal of respect for her. His character changed gradually over the course of the novel and though I dont think it was Brienne's influence entirely, I think she did have a net positive impact on him.

Also in regards to Brienne. I dont think she had ANY romantic notions about life in general. Let alone knighthood. I think her life has always been somewhat difficult.
She took being a member of Renly's color guard, and later her oath to Catelyn as seriously as she did because that is the kind of person she wanted to be. Not due to any Florial and Jonquan (sp?) song she may have heard growing up on Tarth or because she cared what anyone thought about her.
She took it upon herself to embody the ideals of knighthood at the same time accepting there were those who did not. In fact, one could argue this could lead to a greater sense of pride in oneself, as a knight is not necessarily bound by peer pressure to lead his/her life in any particular way, but does so for his/her own personal satisfaction.
I think Brienne had everything going against her in life, other than her noble birth, but has made the absolute most out of the cards she was dealt.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Also in regards to Brienne. I dont think she had ANY romantic notions about life in general. Let alone knighthood. I think her life has always been somewhat difficult.
...
I think Brienne had everything going against her in life, other than her noble birth, but has made the absolute most out of the cards she was dealt.

I always felt that Brienne knew that she wasn't beautiful, and wasn't necessarily a catch- knighthood was pretty much the only thing she had going for her, so she decided to be the best damn knight she could possibly be. And that meant adhering to their code of honor and the idea of what it was to be the ideal knight.

As for romantic notions- well, we all know she was in love with Renly. But other than that I'm sticking with what I said above.

In regards to Jaime being changed by Brienne, I'll have to agree. She cherishes the idea of being a knight, and views it as a high honor. Jaime became a knight for all the wrong reasons- to impress his sister, for one, and to be close to her. Now I think he's truly realizing what it means to be a knight, not as a title, but as a person.

 

[Frey Slayer]

LOL !

You are right, she did have romantic notions for Renly! I think through Renly she was able to see a kind of beautiful life she did not have, well that and the fact that he was easy to look at!

Yes, by donning that armor she made herself the equal or superior to everyone on the field with her. Knighthood concretely and abstractly "hid" her ugliness from the world and made her "normal". Renly's host gave her the chance to shine where in other circumstances she would not have. Having gained so much from taking up the mantle of knighthood, its not hard to imagine she would be willing to give back all she could to the "franchise" (for lack of a better word).