Stannis **spoilers**

Frey Slayer

Live Long and Hunt Freys
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I had an interesting theory (more of a hypothesis at this stage :) ) on what may happen later in the series. This post will contain spoilers of things that happen up to the end of A Storm of Swords. I scanned through the posts here so far and saw a lot of little posts pointing in this direction, but nothing formalized as a theory. So forgive me if this has already been discussed and/or dismissed.

I am wondering if Stannis may become the embodiment, or become consumed by, the dark power that will threaten the Seven Kingdoms. He may be the one against whom everyone else will battle.
Signs that may point to this:

1. The willingness he has shown so far to use what I would call "dark" powers to achieve his goals. A) The shadow creature that killed Renly B) The power that killed the castellan of Storms End C) His entertaining the notion of killing Edric Storm to wake the stone dragons. This last one has always been for me one of the "creepier" aspects of the books.
(to add a little insignificant point: "waking the dragon" was also Viserys euphemism that he was getting angry and was going to start doing some evil things!")

He seems to use a sort of "Darth Vader" justification for his actions - that only he can bring order to the seven kingdoms and will do so by any means necessary. A mind already in this position is prepared to justify a great deal more despicible acts to further his own end.
(this psychological interpretation may be subject to great debate so feel free to ignore it at this point and just consider what is actually "in" the novels :) )

2. He stated that he is going to move his headquarters to the Nightfort, where, at least in legend, all sorts of dark, evil things have happened. Seems like a good place for someone to completely turn to the "dark side" and reign as a "dark lord" so to speak. Certainly he could have picked any other castle to call his home, why pick the one that has a vile reputation? Coincidence? Or maybe Mel "suggested" the Nightfort to him?

3. His orders to have the weirwood trees destroyed wherever he goes. This has always bothered me for some reason. Certainly he uses the justifcation that he is simply destroying the symbols of an old belief system that in his mind is no longer valid, but it does accomplish something more practical. The legend is that the children of the forest were able to travel and communicate with the different parts of the realm through the trees. Destroying them prevents any power from easily reaching Stannis or anyplace he has been.

The children may or may not return, but I have a feeling even if they do not, Bran is going to become something that could use the power of the trees. Maybe even some other Starks. (Another matter for debate)

4. Readers have already discussed the differing methods of Thoros and Melisandre in practicing their religion. Certainly no one, including Thoros, has been in a position to contradict Mel's methods of worship. She may in fact be, knowingly or unknowingly, ushering in the dark powers. Im not sure any of us have ever gotten the warm fuzzies when she appears "on stage". GRRM has kind of clouded our minds with the "grey areas between good and evil" theme. Mel, may in fact, be working for the Other. Its just puzzling why Thoros has a ritual of death that he has performed, even when his faith was low, that Melisandre has never even talked about (or did I miss it?).

5. Stannis' vision of being consumed by the flames. This may be the flames of the power that Melisandre worships. Davos has already pointed out the badges showing the fiery heart surrounding (consuming) the stag of the Baratheons. This may all be foreshadowing of Stannis being consumed by the dark power.

6. Stannis has the horn that can bring down the wall. Whats the worst thing that can happen in a fantasy novel? The bad guys getting ahold of some great power that can change the course of events. Guess what, it may have already happened. That wall may just come down yet my friends.

Finally, there is just a simple matter of the plot. How is EVERYONE is the seven kingdoms going to be battling the Others? Where is the excitement in that? Having the human element of a group or groups being "corrupted" adds a great deal more emotion to the course of the series.

Poor, poor Davos.:(

Comments? Criticism? Condemnation?:p

I really need to find another series to read...this one is taking over my life !
:) :) :)
 
Frey Slayer said:
I really need to find another series to read...this one is taking over my life !
:) :) :)

I know precisely what you mean...

Some very interesting thoughts. I've had mixed feelings about Stannis from the start, and I definitely think he could go either way. The battle seems to be between Davos and Melissandre for Stannis's - 'soul', I guess, though not precisely the word I was looking for. So long as Stannis keeps faith in Davos, he seems to be able to keep the 'darkness' at bay. I just don't know. You get the feeling with these books that just about anything could happen...
 
I feel the potential is there for Stannis to 'turn'. He's been abandoned by all but the most radical & fanatical of his followers, his dream of ruling Westeros seems to have been all but crushed and Jon & the Night's Watch reluctant allies at best.
It really depends on how the relationship between Melissandre/Jon/Davos/Stannis develops. Personally I can see it all going pearshape very easily and I think Stannis will come to a sticky end either at the hands of Melissandre or possibly Davos (?)

Roll on October!! :)
 
Culhwch said:
Mate, I know you haven't forgotten Feast concerns the south, and only the south...

Roll on God Know's When!

It'll be interesting to see how seperate he can keep them to be honest. Dany & Arya's adventures will probably be self-contained to a great extent, but Kings Landing, the Eyrie and Dorne must be affected by any great happenings in the North I should have thought.

Either way, half of Dance of Dragons is written in GRRM's own words so there's reason for optimism :)
 
I don't think Mel is working for the other but that her faith in stannis is misplaced. From what she's mentioned of the prophecy of Azur Ahhai (not sure of spelling) he/she needs to wake the stone dragons. This is obviously Dany and since Stannis abandoned Dragonstone to go north he can't wake those Dragons and gargoyles. Mel's misplaced faith in Stannis to be the savior will likely contribute to his downfall if he has one and possibly to the destruction of the wall if stannis believes that he can destroy the others because he's Azur.

On a side note I can't believe how readily everyones dismissing news or Dany's dragons in Kings Landing or the kraken that was attacking ships. If they hear Aerys heir has dragons they should be concerned and mel should be switching sides.
 
cercar said:
Mel's misplaced faith in Stannis to be the savior will likely contribute to his downfall if he has one and possibly to the destruction of the wall if stannis believes that he can destroy the others because he's Azur.

I don't think Stannis truly believes that he's Azur. I think he's simply desperate to have a following of some type. He doesn't seem to put much stock in the religious aspect of the whole thing- it's more like he's been seduced by Melisandre's promise of power.

cercar said:
On a side note I can't believe how readily everyones dismissing news or Dany's dragons in Kings Landing or the kraken that was attacking ships. If they hear Aerys heir has dragons they should be concerned and mel should be switching sides.

But are rumors of these happenings very prevalent? And think of what's been happening in the kingdom: Four kings (Robb, Renly, Robert, and Joffrey) have all died, the red comet has come and gone, and war is raging throughout the kingdom, not to mention the Others are on their way. All sorts of crazy rumors happen in that type of chaos, so who's to say that they'll believe those concerning mythical beasts?
 
I can think of one more person at the wall of royal blood who might fit into Melisandre's plan to wake the stone dragons.

How about...

"...Aemon Targaryen, a king's son and a king's brother and a king who might have been." p.1012 ASoS

Just a thought.
 
I seemed to get the feeling that both Stannis and Melisandre feel they're finally in the right place. Fighting the "true" evil, not the petty sqaubbling of the rest of kingdom. He also truly seemed to want a Stark in Winterfell for the assistance he will need to fight the others and not just for the throne. But with Martin, who knows.
 
Duff_Omathum said:
I can think of one more person at the wall of royal blood who might fit into Melisandre's plan to wake the stone dragons.

How about...

"...Aemon Targaryen, a king's son and a king's brother and a king who might have been." p.1012 ASoS

Just a thought.

Duff, you're right on the money there. I don't want to give anything away, but I'll just say I've read a Jon spoiler on another site. :)
 
reruth0627 said:
But with Martin, who knows.

I think that may be the key point.

I have a feeling there are going to be some surprises both large and small that may cause those of us making predictions to seriously rework our theories! But thats the fun of it! :)
 
That's a really interesting theory, Frey Slayer. I don't think Stannis will be consumed by the darker powers, he seems more likely to be destroyed by them. I'm reminded of what I think Donal Noye said about the Baratheon brothers, that Stannis was like iron, hard but brittle (or something to that effect).

I think his faith in Melisandre is misplaced. He doesn't buy into the religion, like AryaUnderfoot said, but I think he is certainly awed by its power. He wants to bend that power to his will, but he'll bend under the heat like iron in a forge. I don't think he's longing for power based on pride or vanity or something so selfish, but instead based on his own unique definition of justice (a definition most people wouldn't buy into). I think he desires mostly good ends, but he relies on Melisandre to decide the means, and she's all kinds of crazy.

I don't know if any humans will side with the others (I don't think Stannis will--he's already done a lot to make sure the wall is still standing), but I think many will want to let someone else do the fighting. The Wildlings, Night's watch, and Stannis are on the front lines, and I don't predict the southern kingdoms rushing up north at the first sign of danger. The Greyjoys (for example) would want to wait until the Starks and Boltons and the like are crushed before they would ever move in. And as more people get involved, everyone will still want to make sure that when the dust settles, they're the ones left in the strongest position.

In the first book's prologue, we saw Waymar Royce killed and turned into an other. What would Stannis or Melisandre be like if they were turned? That could be a way for Stannis to fit in with some of the ideas Frey Slayer had. Anyone predicting any powerful figures being turned into others? Do you think this will be a major issue in the books later, or is that too much like a bad zombie movie?
 
Well for a start, the men (Royce, Small Paul etc.) don't become Others, they become wights, and from what I can discern they lose all semblace of who they were.

Where does Beric Dondarrion fit into all this? Is he Azor Ahai reborn? I think that more likely than Dany being the one....
 
Culhwch said:
Well for a start, the men (Royce, Small Paul etc.) don't become Others, they become wights, and from what I can discern they lose all semblace of who they were.

Where does Beric Dondarrion fit into all this? Is he Azor Ahai reborn? I think that more likely than Dany being the one....

Perhaps Stannis would be made into a different sort of wight- a puppet for the Others to use to gain power. Then again, they don't seem to be the sorts who try to manipulate. They just want to destroy.

I don't think Beric Dondarrion is Azor Ahai reborn. As the story goes, Azor Ahai had to make a huge sacrifice in order to weild his sword, by plunging it into Nissa Nissa's breast and killing the woman he loved. In this way, Dany fits the story a little better because she sacrificed her son in order to weild the dragons, a figurative sword of flame. Regardless, I think that whoever is Azor Ahai will have to be someone who gives up that which they love and desire most in order to fulfill the prophecy.
 
AryaUnderfoot said:
Perhaps Stannis would be made into a different sort of wight- a puppet for the Others to use to gain power. Then again, they don't seem to be the sorts who try to manipulate. They just want to destroy.

To be honest, I've never been entirely certain of the difference between wights and Others... can Others not be made? If I remember correctly (which is very doubtful at this point), the guy travelling with Royce in the prologue (Wyll?) was killed by an other. Was this not Royce? How about the undead that Jon killed when they attacked Commander Mormont at the Wall? They were the raised corpses of Nights Watchmen, I believe. Were those wights? Have we even seen Others in the novels yet?

And while I doubt the wights and Others don't delight in manipulation, they may be crafty enough to blow a horn. And if Beric can be resurrected as at least most of his former self (and now also those cultish fellows in the Iron Islands are being resurrected as well), who's to say that the Others can't do something similar? Someone as powerful as Melisandre or even Stannis might become something different than someone like Small Paul.
 
Wyl was killed by Royce, who was a wight, and who was in turn killed by Others. The men who attacked Mormont were likewise wights. As I understand it, the Others are a race apart, pale, wraith-like beings who have the ability to turn men into undead wights - I guess something akin to vampires, but not quite. The foe Sam kills with the obsidian dagger was an Other, but Small Paul, who was killed by that Other, comes back a wight. The turning process I don't believe has been outlined in the text, as yet.
 
Thats right.

The "others" can be killed with the dragon glass. Sam the Slayer simply slipped his dagger into it and it "melted" away.

The wights can be dispatched with normal weapons but do have a zombie kind of persistance.

Insofar as the others and the wights go, we also dont know yet if there are being driven by a single intelligent being. Doesnt Azor Ahai have to defeat his "opposite"? The shadow to his light?
A being like that may be capable of all sorts of things!

And I have to believe some creepy things are going to be going on in the Nightfort ! :) :p
 
On the issue of Wights I thought that when an other came upon a corpse they could enter it and take control to be wights. The advantage of this would be that they lose their vulnerability to dragonglass. True the wights are slower and more cumbersome than the others but if an other could be killed by sam who has nearly no combat skill just because he used dragonglass the use of wights could be more preferable.

I believe there may have been a mention to necromancy in ASOS concerning the wights so i may be wrong about this.
 
I don't think the Wights are directly controlled by the Others, but they obviously follow their commands. The Others seem fairly capable warriors - as shown in the Thrones prologue. Sam's success may just have been a fluke - the Others had obviously not come against dragonglass-armed soldiers for centuries...
 
I think when someone is turned into a wight, which I take to be some sort of zombie/ reanimated corpse, that they retain some of what they used to be or know. Jeor Mormont said as much when one of the wights came for him, it was without cunning or supposed intelligence but still knew where Mormont was and his importance. The other interesting thing is even when a body part is severed, it still functions and tries to continue attacking, or at least it did in that instance with the hand Jon hacked off.
 

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