The most dangerous villain?

[gandrin]

It's Littlefinger.

All the others are so obvious, but Littlefinger is just plain dangerous. Varys is even scared of him. Do you really think all he wanted was what he's got now? His plan was incredible- kill one person, stir the pot just right, and set off a civil war that weakens everyone except the most secure part of the land, which he is now in charge of. The only thing that failed was that he lost Cat, but now he has a younger version to play with.

I still wonder what he's got cooking, and even more, is he really in this alone? Could all this just be to satisfy his own ambition, or is there somebody else? Whatever the case, his actions are the cause of all the grief so far, and he has walked out completely safe, unscathed and unimplicated.

 

[Culhwch]

Littlefinger's delusional. He doesn't have half the power he credits himself with. It's all talk, all smoke and mirrors. He's a pawn or a fool, or both.

[...prepares to eat words]

 

[gandrin]

If he's a pawn, I fear to see the hand that is moving him. It wouldn't be anyone we know, yet.

Littlefinger's Checklist:
1. destroy Starks, especially Ned to leave your Cat an available widow
2. destroy Baratheons
3. cripple Lannisters
4. institute a puppet king
5. create civil war to cripple entire Lands
6. keep one major house completely out of the fight, then take complete control of said house
7. get the girl
8. be held blameless for all

Check, check, check, check, check, check, maybe check, and check. Delusions of power? I more wonder if he made a deal with some dark lord or something to have accomplished so much.

 

[LadyFel]

It wouldn't be anyone we know, yet

Varys slip your mind? That man has some hidden agenda, methinks...

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Varys slip your mind? That man has some hidden agenda, methinks...

I seems from at least Petyrs point of view that they are working at cross purposes, or at the very least Varys "little birds" are something Petyr has to be careful to avoid. I would be very surprised indeed if they were working together.

 

[Culhwch]

Check, check, check, check, check, check, maybe check, and check. Delusions of power? I more wonder if he made a deal with some dark lord or something to have accomplished so much.

Deals with a dark lord don't seem to be Martin's thang, so I doubt that.... A lot of your points, I don't think you can name Littlefinger as sole cause. A lot fell into place, and a lot was definitively caused by others. And we are yet to see whether Littlefinger has control over the Arryns. He may hold the Eyrie, but I don't think Lysa's chief Lords Bannermen will be quick to follow him (Have outlined this somewhere else on the boards). I think the Vale is headed for a bloody civil war, and Littlefinger to a grisly fate. Hopefully at the hands of Sansa.

 

[Sword of the Morning]

Deals with a dark lord don't seem to be Martin's thang, so I doubt that.... A lot of your points, I don't think you can name Littlefinger as sole cause. A lot fell into place, and a lot was definitively caused by others. And we are yet to see whether Littlefinger has control over the Arryns. He may hold the Eyrie, but I don't think Lysa's chief Lords Bannermen will be quick to follow him (Have outlined this somewhere else on the boards). I think the Vale is headed for a bloody civil war, and Littlefinger to a grisly fate. Hopefully at the hands of Sansa.

Nicely put Culhwch. I'd have to agree that Littlefinger will end up dead. More grisly the better. Peytr's drive in life is to climb up the social ladder, one step at a time. Yet the higher you are the futher you have to fall. I really don't think he can keep the Vale stable enough. Many of the bannermen hate him. Peytr only gets ahead in lie by selling position and what not. It would be nice if Sansa had a hand in his downfall.

 

[Sword of the Morning]

Varys slip your mind? That man has some hidden agenda, methinks...

I would not count Varys as a villain yet. He has proven himself to play both sides to stay a live in the game of thrones. He palys both sides of the game. Keeping himself seemingly allied with one then the other. I'm suprised that he has still kept his head on his shoulders. Littlefinger is driven my greed and personal gain while Varys is driven to just stay alive.

 

[Culhwch]

I think Varys is driven by loyalty to House Targaryen.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I think Varys is driven by loyalty to House Targaryen.

I'll have to agree with you on that one. He and Magister Illyrio are partners in that respect. And I also think that, while Littlefinger has his own agenda, he is still the unwitting pawn of Varys and his cohorts, to certain extents. I think Varys gives him a long leash so that he won't be suspicious.

 

[Boaz]

I think that one of Martin's important messages regarding ASOIAF (if not his own personal views on theology and mores) is that heroes and villains are completely within the eye of the beholder.

This is easily seen by the POV presentation of the story. The story opens with the Stark's POVs (ie. the Heroes) and from their POV the Lannister's are all villains. Yet, we are quickly shown that Tyrion might possibly have a few redeeming qualities. When we fast forward to ASOS, we find that Jaime is not the monster we thought... in fact he may have been justified in at least some of his heinous deeds and that Ned and Cat were at the least guilty of gross self righteousness (if not prejudice, hatred, and willful ignorance of their use of the Lannisters).

Someone recently posted (on another thread) about Dany dying a horrible death. Martin has definitely set her up as a hero, imo, so I should not be surprised (but I probably will) when Dany starts repeating the atrocities of her father (an abhorred villain). And I think we should all be ready for the Melisandre POVs ahead... Davos has obviously set her up as a villain, so get ready for Martin to turn the tide.

The OP titled this thread The most dangerous villain? It depends upon your POV after Martin has finished designing this crazy emotional roller coaster. Personally, Littlefinger, Tyrion, Varys, Jaime, Cersei, Dany, Gregor, Sandor, and Melisandre are too obvious... it'll be Sam.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Not convinced that Petyr is a villain in any general sense - a self-interested survivor, yes, but...

Robert Baratheon - now there's someone whose unthinking irresponsible selfishness destroyed a kingdom...

 

[Culhwch]

True enough, Brian. And I like what Boaz had to say about perspective. It's all from where you're standing. It's all still shades of grey - sure, Jaime has been revealed to have some redeeming qualities (acid wit would be my pick), but he did throw Bran from a tower window, and no matter where you're standing that is a low act. It all comes back to Martin's realistic characterisation. Every one is capable of great good, great evil, or for that matter just pettyiness or indifference; it's just a matter of choice - though in some circumstances, that mightn't be an agreeable choice....

 

[Duff_Omathum]

Most dangerous villian?

Physically: Ser Gregor
Cunning: Littlefinger/Queen of Thorns

I think Tyrion is could become a real mean SOAB later too...

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Not convinced that Petyr is a villain in any general sense - a self-interested survivor, yes, but...

Robert Baratheon - now there's someone whose unthinking irresponsible selfishness destroyed a kingdom...

and Petyr did warn Ned not to trust him...

Its hard to know yet exactly what is movitation is. Does he believe everyone plays "the game of thrones" and therefore what he has done cannot be judged one way or the other? That all great houses & lords got what they have through means that those who have not would judge underhanded? Does he care?
Or, is there some long standing emotional and personal turmoil unresolved that guides his hand? Such as, a need to separate Catelyn from Ned or gain as much power as he can to initiate some grander scheme?
Its hard to tell yet. Personally I am very interested in his character. He has certainly orchestrated a LOT of what has happened.

I agree too with your assessment of Robert. Kind of a jerk.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I agree too with your assessment of Robert. Kind of a jerk.

Robert did it all 'for love'. After Lyanna's death he just wanted revenge on Rhaegar. I don't think he actually wanted the Kingdom at all - he was just thrust into it once he won, and duly got stuck in an arranged marriage with a woman who didn't know him and knew she was being traded as a virtual hostage to ensure her families' loyalty.
Kind of sucks all the joy outta winning, doesn't it?

Oh, and I agree about Varys, he is definately a Targaryen loyalist to the core (as Dorne will probably be shown to be) and since he's lost all his position of power I would not be at all surprised to see him go to join Dany.

For "most dangerous villain", my vote would go to Melissandre. A religious zealot who has no regard whatsoever for the lives of anyone (her followers included) and has already demonstrated her lack of scruples when it comes to getting what she wants.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

I agree with you about Mel, she has given me the heebie jeebies since she first walked on the scene. I truly believe she is more dark than light.

The thing about Robert I cant get away from is that he has slain a man who seems to have been a truly outstanding individual. Perhaps Rhaegar could have ushered in a new era for the kingdom had he gotten to the throne. If he was protecting Lyanna from the Mad King (instead of raping her), perhaps some sort of negotiation could have been worked out with him to get the Mad King off the throne in some manner that didnt involve civil war.

Has anyone discussed the possibility that Rhaegar could still be alive? Barristan Selmy's story about him suddenly coming out of his studies and deciding to become a warrior has always troubled me. Its as if he came across a prophecy of some kind. Barristan's high opinion of Rhaegar also evokes a feeling of melancholy, as if something truly valuable had been lost forever.
This would also be something that Lyanna would make Ned swear never to divulge. And certainly she could count on the honorable Ned to not break his word to his dying sister.
If I am making this much of a stretch I might as well go all the way...maybe Rhaegar is "coldhands"? Perhaps he has fled beyond the wall to prepare for the upcoming battle. Perhaps that is what he learned of in his scrolls.
Just a thought. I have them from time to time....

 

[Boaz]

Cully, I personally do not hold to the creed that "Good and Evil are a matter of perspective" nor am I saying that Martin does (he might, I don't know). I am saying that he is using this theme to tell a great story, to get his readers totally involved in the story, and to evoke emotions from his readers. It's a great tool in his hands.

Trey, are you saying that Rhaegar saw himself as Azhor Ahai (sp?, you know the guy who Stannis thinks he is) reborn? The only way that Rhaegar could still be alive is if a priest/priestess of R'hllor saved him, but that would mean that his burial or cremation was a sham. But if Rhaegar is alive, Howland Reed would probably know.

As for villains, we have yet to mention Qaithe (sp?) or Euron Greyjoy.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Has anyone discussed the possibility that Rhaegar could still be alive?
If I am making this much of a stretch I might as well go all the way...maybe Rhaegar is "coldhands"? Perhaps he has fled beyond the wall to prepare for the upcoming battle. Perhaps that is what he learned of in his scrolls.
Just a thought. I have them from time to time....

Nice idea, but you'd have to believe that Robert would realise if the corpse was someone else rather than Rhaegar. And magic has only started coming back into the world with the return of the Others/Dragons, so I doubt he could have been raised from the dead.
Personally, I'm going for the obvious "Coldhands is Ben Stark" theory until I can find a convincing enough reason why not.

And as for Quaithe & Euron, no-one's mentioned them because so far they're hardly mentioned!
Euron has the potential to be a supreme badass, but Quaithe is merely the representative of Asshai, more of an envoy than a true threat at the moment, I'd say.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

I have laugh even at myself. I know this is the wildest of all speculation, but Im thinking about it more of a mental exercise than anything, speaking to the possibility rather than the probability.
Boaz: Im not sure about his being Azhor Ahai or whatever. Im not yet buying into any tenets of Mel's weird fire-cult. I just dont trust the words coming out of her mouth.

WS: I think I have made up my mind to go ahead and re-read aGoT to clarify some of these details for myself. But before having done that...I think its given that Robert slew someone in Rhaegar's armor. Did he know for sure that it was Rhaegar? If Rhaegar did stumble across some sort of foreshadowing of events to come, he had years to prepare for it. Magic was not completely gone either, just weakened. There are any number of things he could have done to cheat death or fake his own defeat.
Also, like I said Rhaegar being behind the wall is an even greater stretch, but it would be an interesting twist. Benjen and Rhaegar could both be in the north. Do we know that coldhands = 3 eyed crow? Or if there are even more benevolent forces working there?
For that matter, Rhaegar could be a dark intelligence behind the wall. That would put an interesting twist on the Fire & Ice motif. Brother vs. Sister with Jon in between.

Its all fun and trust that I dont take myself seriously either.