Is it just me, or does this strike the rest of you as being ever so slightly silly?

[Dolorous Edd]

Just read another one of Dann'ys moans about being the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and Robert being and usurper and when she comes into her kingdom..... yada yada yada.

And before that there was Stannis, and Renly, and hodor all whinging about how it's their by right etc.

I mean come on! there is no such thing as a rightful king/queen. When you place yourself in control of people, without their consent, you are usurping their control over the course of their own lives.

They're ALL usurpers! -

Robert overthrew Aerys, Aegon overthrough the seven kingdoms, the seven kingdoms overthrew the realms of the first men, the realms of the first men overthrew the children of the forest, and the forests were probably not too happy about having some silly little people dressed in leaves suddenly announcing that they were their offspring


it's all getting a bit tedious now tbh.

The only ones with the decency to own up to the fact that they thieves on a monumental scale are the Iron Islanders, claiming land by right of conquest.

 

[Boaz]

I agree.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

yeah but when someone steals your stolen goods, they're still stealing your stolen goods - can't they steal their own?

 

[Brian G Turner]

It's all politics...

 

[Boaz]

yeah but when someone steals your stolen goods, they're still stealing your stolen goods - can't they steal their own?

No honor among thieves, eh?

When you are talking goods (something lawfully purchased), then I suppose taking them back is not stealing... but we are talking thrones here. How do you purchase a throne? You either are made king by popular will of the people or you steal it or take it with the edge of a blade. However it is done, the one on the throne is the king... as long as the people allow it and as long as someone does not take it away.

A number of axioms come to mind in regards to being king.

Might makes right.
Mandate of Heaven.
Ancien Regime.
Noblesse oblige.
Divine Right.
Social Contract.
Survival of the fittest.
Finders keepers, losers weepers.

We deal with this today with our democratic ideologies in an imperfect world.

I was about to launch myself into a geo-political, ethnic, and cultural quagmire, but I think I'll be smart and stop here.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Just read another one of Dann'ys moans about being the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and Robert being and usurper and when she comes into her kingdom..... yada yada yada.

Dolorous- I can understand what you're saying, and Boaz certainly has good points himself.

In Dany's defence, though- she really was the heir to that particular throne. The Targaryens built the Seven Kingdoms into what they are, and as the only living Targaryen, she is the rightful heir. Not to mention, they did rule there for several generations. In this case, I can give her a little slack. Stannis and Renly, however- they're more like dogs begging for scraps from Robert's table.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Dont forget that the "ursurper's" rebellion led to the brutal slaughter of her family and the throne has been sending assassins and spies after her and her brother since their escape. That could well make a soul a tad peevish.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Dolorous- I can understand what you're saying, and Boaz certainly has good points himself.

In Danny’s defence, though- she really was the heir to that particular throne. The Targaryens built the Seven Kingdoms into what they are, and as the only living Targaryen, she is the rightful heir. Not to mention, they did rule there for several generations. In this case, I can give her a little slack.

Yes, but her father was a raving psychotic. She keeps moaning about how her father's vassals betrayed him, forsaking their oaths, but fealty goes both ways. Yes the Peasants have a duty to their lords, but this is in exchange for the promise of protection when needed. The same applies to the Lords oaths to their King. Aery's unjustified cruelty sundered any obligations his Lords had to him IMO.



Danny's been shielded from the harder truths about her father's mental state by Visery's for most of her life, but Bariston began to enlighten her at the end of ASOS (I think. 150 odd pages of ACOK left to go til i can re-read it) so i hope she'll start to loose her hatred of the "rebel" houses and will hopefully be able to make common cause with them against the others, as things stand her hatred of them is so strong i doubt she'd even stop to talk to them before incinerating them with her dragons.

 

[MSBorba]

as the only living Targaryen, she is the rightful heir.

Arya,

Is she the only living Targaryen with a claim?

If Jon is Rhaegar's ******* child, wouldn't he have a better claim? Although taking the oath of the Black Watch and the honor Ned instilled in Jon, probably rules him out of a claim of the Targaryen empire.

Also and perhaps more of a long shot is Tyrion (mother raped by Mad King Aerys)....if this was true, Tryion would be another ******* Targaryan, with an even better claim than Jon or Dany.

Isn't this fun : )

 

[cercar]

Don't forget about old maester Aemon although he gave up his claim when he joined the maesters life long oaths are being removed more often these days.

 

[Boaz]

Yes, but her father was a raving psychotic. She keeps moaning about how her father's vassals betrayed him, forsaking their oaths, but fealty goes both ways. Yes the Peasants have a duty to their lords, but this is in exchange for the promise of protection when needed. The same applies to the Lords oaths to their King. Aery's unjustified cruelty sundered any obligations his Lords had to him IMO.

Aerys ruled by Divine Right. In his mind, the Targaryens were semi-divine and his subjects had no right to question any of his actions.

Robert's rebellion was based on the fact that Aerys was no longer fit to be king. His might and justice were ordained by the gods to protect the people from Aerys, ie. The Mandate of Heaven.

Beric and Thoros carry on under the Social Contract. Government must provide certain safeties and the people will not rebel.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Arya,

Is she the only living Targaryen with a claim?[\QUOTE]

You and I know that there are possibilities of other heirs, and that Aemon is still alive. I was speaking more from Dany's POV- in her eyes, she's the only one left. Which has got to make her all the more determined to establish her place in the world and reclaim what she believes to be her birthright.

 

[Boaz]

Wait 'til you find out that Ben Plumm is actually Aemon's love child...

Everyone in the last book will be related to the Targaryens and they'll decide that they are all equal (something about every man's home is a castle) and they'll all decide to become communists.

 

[Niolani]

I do find all Dany's carry on about Westeros being hers by rights annoying. Robert overthrew her family so they are no longer the rulers. Stannis is the rightful ruler becuse he is the true heir of Robert. Joffrey and Tommen have no right to the throne becuse his claim rests on his being Robert's trueborn son when he isn't. If Dany does come to conquer Westeros, what is the point? If she truly is infertile, she won't have a Targaryen heir so when she dies there'll probably be another poo fight as to who has the right to rule. Plus she doesn't know the people she wants to rule at all and she may succumb to the madness that seems to be inherent in her family. There really isn't much point in Dany ruling Westeros at all, the only piont is to defeat the Others. She could just come back and reclaim Dragonstone instead. Plus what are the cities she conquered going to do when she's gone?

 

[TK-421]

There really isn't much point in Dany ruling Westeros at all, the only piont is to defeat the Others. She could just come back and reclaim Dragonstone instead. Plus what are the cities she conquered going to do when she's gone?

The point is that obviously, since Robert's death, those pretenders to the Iron Throne (Stannis, Renly, Joff, Tommen, Myrcella) have not done a very good job of uniting the continent asn the Targaryens once did. Yes, Dany will defeat the Others (once we know their true rolem purpose and intent) and she is the only one who can ever hope of once again uniting the seven kingdoms and bring peace to Westeros (something much lacking under the USURPERS).

 

[rudycrab]

Its not like eveything was happy under the Targaryens all the time. I don't think it is portrayed as a golden age. The peasants supported the Kingswood brotherhood outlaws(?) agaisnt the king's knights until Arthur Dayne won them over, obviously they were unhappy about something. Stannis is not a pretender, he has the most lawful claim to the throne. Robert had a good reason to rebel agaisnt the king. The king was a freaking mad man. Almost every character and POV in the book shows this. Dany is the only one who doesn't get it. If she wants to rule she has to fight, just like Robert. She is just another Usurper.

 

[TK-421]

She is just another Usurper.

Let's agree to disagree but I do not believe she is an usurper. Yes, all was not rosy under the Targaryens and yes Aerys was mad (all great dynasties eventually collapse under their own decadence) but things have not been this bad in Westeros since anyone can remember:
1) One of the oldest and most stable houses losing the North with fighting between the remaining northmen and the ironborn over the ashes
2) The Night's Watch at its weakest point in its history (although nobody really seems to know this or care)
3) The riverlands completely devastated, burned, peasants killed and raped...
4) The ironborn pillaging and raiding like never before
5) The Lannisters in power and a weak boy-king
6) The rise of the Faith
7) Winter IS coming...

My point is that I see a great advantage for Dany if she uses it well to rally the small folk like she rallied the slaves in Quarth and Mereen. They may see her as a potential saviour and bringer of stability and peace. The only law that rules in Westeros is the law of the sword (or dragon if you've got one or three). Aegon the Conquerer used this law and so did Robert. Stannis will never sit on the throne...Not as long as he's got the Lannisters, Tyrells, Dorne and the Vale standing in his way

 

[rudycrab]

I think that a repeat of Aegon's conquest by Dany in order to bring peace seems alittle bit too simple and obvious for GRRM. It would be disapointing. I agree that the current instability is a great oppurtunity for someone to step in and rule but I don't see Dany being the number one contender. I assume the lords who would fight her will not make the same mistakes as their ancestors. Hiding in castles and building big armies is not the way to fight dragons. Also how old were Aegon's dragons? It seems Dany will have to make her move quickly to capitalize on the current turmoil so her dragons will still be quite young. I never said Stannis was going to rule. He does have a lawful claim from a certain point of view. Just as Dany and all of the would be kings are usurpers depending on perspective. Personally I don't see Robert as a usurper. Aerys had it coming.

 

[Adasunshine]

I'm really sorry to all you Dany fans out there but I just don't feel that she will be a suitable Queen for Westeros.

I, personally, would like to see her stay in The Free Cities and maybe build a kingdom for herself there and ally herself with whoever becomes ruler of Westeros, it would make for a more interesting read, imo.

I am a Stark fan and would love to see them rule the Seven Kingdoms and the Wall. If not that then at least regain the North.

xx

 

[Boaz]

The outsiders call it Westeros. The insiders still call it the Seven Kingdoms. The Targaryens unified Westeros for the first time less than four hundred years before the current events in ASOIAF. Realistically, the citizens under the Iron Throne do not have a solid sense of nationalism... they do have a strong sense of regionalism. Dothraki, Summer Islanders, and people of the Free Cities may see them all as Westerosi, but the people of the Seven Kingdoms see themselves first as Dornish, Ironborn, Marchers, Northmen, etc.

Sooooooo, it does not really matter who rules them. The strongest coalition will rule as large an area as possible... if they can rule all seven kingdoms, great... if they can't, then it'll be just as before Aegon and his dragons arrived. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that government Westerosi style can be summed up in the old phrase: Might Makes Right.