Logical things that won't happen... or Debunking obvious plotlines.

[Boaz]

Inspired by Ender's Stupid things that won't happen.

What do you think should happen, but that you know will not? (Please keep negative posts polite.)

For instance, I think that Daenarys will not marry Jon. She needs to unify the kingdom politically and the Night's Watch does not count. She'll do as all of them do and as she did before... marry for political reasons. He consort would need to be a great lord... Bran Stark and Robert Arryn are the two most likely.

I also think that since Mr. Martin is halfway finished with the fifth book, it should arrive to us by October 2007... or Summer 2008. This will not happen because (imho) he gets more devious the more that internet posters catch on to his plots.

Ramsay Snow (Bolton) will not marry the fake Arya Stark (Jeyne Poole?). That would make too much sense. I think Roose's wife, Fat Walda, will die in childbirth and that Roose will take fake Arya for himself.

Varys will not reveal an earth shattering secret in AFFC. He could (and should) easily tell us about Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Edric, Gendry, Jaqen, Rhaegar, Barristan, Aemon, Renly, Bronn, Lyssa, and Mace, but he'll hold it until the last book.

 

[Raven]

I also think that since Mr. Martin is halfway finished with the fifth book, it should arrive to us by October 2007... or Summer 2008. This will not happen because (imho) he gets more devious the more that internet posters catch on to his plots.

Here, at least, I can tell you that you are wrong. George stopped checking out the various forums devoted to these sorts of discussions long ago, because he doesn't want to be influenced in that way. He knows about the existence of some (not many) of the theories, unavoidably, but swears he hasn't changed anything as a result.

Ramsay Snow (Bolton) will not marry the fake Arya Stark (Jeyne Poole?). That would make too much sense. I think Roose's wife, Fat Walda, will die in childbirth and that Roose will take fake Arya for himself.

Interesting idea. I could see it happening, but it would surely lead to open conflict between the Boltons.

OTOH, I believe 'fake Arya' will be easily exposed, and the Boltons are not stupid. Either she will die shortly after wedding Ransey, possibly bearing him an heir first, or the Boltons have something else up their sleeve... like 'discovering' they have been slipped a fake in order to have an excuse to turn on the Lannisters, if necessary.

 

[Summer]

I don't believe that Dany will take the Iron throne, I think she will die and/or someone else of Targaryens with more rights will rule Westeros. May be Tiryon, Jon or person wich is unknown for the time.

 

[Duff_Omathum]

Rickon Stark, along with his angry direwolf Shaggydog terrorize the North bringing havoc to everyone's plans.

SHOULD BECAUSE: I could see this happening, givien the poor kid's traumatic experiences and the scary nature of Shaggy. An evil Stark could be quite a character!

WON'T BECAUSE: Well, I haven't seen a Stark acting trully evil yet. Also I don't think there's enough time left for him to grow enough.

 

[Sword of the Morning]

I think that Sansa won't be a player in the game of thornes. I believe that she will find the true knight in the realm (the Hound). So that means that the Hound is not going to join the Night's Watch.

 

[Ender]

Seems everyone thinks Dany will sooner or later come to Westeros.
I think Mr.Martin will surprise us (once again) and Dany will stay at the free cities and never come to Westeros.

Nobody expected Ned to die (at least that soon) and it happened.
GGRR always surprise us !

 

[Culhwch]

I don't believe that Dany will take the Iron throne, I think she will die and/or someone else of Targaryens with more rights will rule Westeros. May be Tiryon, Jon or person wich is unknown for the time.

How would Tyrion or Jon (Targaryen bastards at best, no relation at worst) have more 'rights' to the throne than Dany, trueborn daughter of King Aerys?

 

[Dolorous Edd]

How would Tyrion or Jon (Targaryen bastards at best, no relation at worst) have more 'rights' to the throne than Dany, trueborn daughter of King Aerys?

If Jon IS the son of lyana and rhaegar, he's their trueborn son. Rhaegar is like Ned in the respect that he's too honourable to father a *******, particularily on a woman he loves. If that theory is true he wed Lyana. Aegon had two wives, so it's not against the rules for targaryens. Jon, as the only surviving child of Rahegar, the heir, would be ahead of both viserys and danny in the order of succesion. As to his vows, well the great council (and the high septon) were prepared to absolve aemon's vows to allow him to take the throne for "the good of the realm", It's perfectly feasible that the same could be done for jon. Jon might even accept if Aemon/sam can convince him that taking the throne, and restoring peace to the realm would be in accordance with his vows to the watch in that he would still be defending the land.

 

[Raven]

As to his vows, well the great council (and the high septon) were prepared to absolve aemon's vows to allow him to take the throne for "the good of the realm", It's perfectly feasible that the same could be done for jon.

There's a crucial difference, in that the vows the Great Council were prepared to absolve Aemon of were Maester's vows. After he declined, Aemon then took NW vows so that he would not be seen as a potential claimant for the throne: suggesting that the latter set of vows are seen as harder to put aside than the former.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

There's a crucial difference, in that the vows the Great Council were prepared to absolve Aemon of were Maester's vows. After he declined, Aemon then took NW vows so that he would not be seen as a potential claimant for the throne: suggesting that the latter set of vows are seen as harder to put aside than the former.

Agreed. I've never read that the penalty for breaking a maester's vows was death. They're just stripped of their chain, I believe (Qyburn).

In addition, if Jon won't even accept Stannis' offer to become Lord Stark of Winterfell, I'm wondering if he'd don a crown.

Question: given what we know of Lyanna's character, is it likely that she would acquiesce to being a second wife?

 

[Boaz]

Are you suggesting that Rhaegar quietly divorced Elia? Hmmm. Don't know if it could be done quietly, and it would have alienated one of the Targaryens few allies.

Do you think (if Lyanna loved Rhaegar) that Lyanna was swayed by whatever information turned Rhaegar from a scholar into a warrior? Could she have come to him out of a sense of duty to a prophecy?

It seems that Arthur Dayne and others in the Kingsguard knew the truth about the nature of Rhaegar's and Lyanna's relationship. Would the other survivors of Aerys' Kingsguards also know? Do Barristan and Jaime know about Jon and if Lyanna was Rhaegar's wife/lover/hostage?

Back to DE's comment on Jon's claim (if he's trueborn) being better than Viserys' and Danaerys' claims... I'm not sure on the laws of primogeniture and inheritance in Westeros... but the V's and D's claims as the children of Aerys are hard to ignore. I think Jon has an uphill battle in proving his parentage let alone his legitimacy to the throne.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Are you suggesting that Rhaegar quietly divorced Elia? Hmmm. Don't know if it could be done quietly, and it would have alienated one of the Targaryens few allies.

I'm not suggesting that Rhaegar divorced Elia. I'm just thinking that Lyanna probably would have preferred being in a monogamous relationship. I recall that she had spoken with disapproval to Ned once about Robert's tendency to stray into women's beds.

Do you think (if Lyanna loved Rhaegar) that Lyanna was swayed by whatever information turned Rhaegar from a scholar into a warrior? Could she have come to him out of a sense of duty to a prophecy?

Interesting theory. I'd love to learn about whatever changed Rhaegar.

It seems that Arthur Dayne and others in the Kingsguard knew the truth about the nature of Rhaegar's and Lyanna's relationship. Would the other survivors of Aerys' Kingsguards also know? Do Barristan and Jaime know about Jon and if Lyanna was Rhaegar's wife/lover/hostage?

I'm wondering if those members of the kingsguard were privy to any extra information, or if they were simply duty-bound to remain there. (Which leads me to another question: where was Rhaegar when Ned came to rescue Lyanna from his tower?) I think if Jaime had known about Jon, he would have given the information to his father. As for Barristan- he joined Robert's kingsguard only because he felt he had nowhere else to turn. Then, he went to Daenerys. Wouldn't it have been in his interest to seek out Jon as well?

 

[red_temple]

I'm not suggesting that Rhaegar divorced Elia. I'm just thinking that Lyanna probably would have preferred being in a monogamous relationship. I recall that she had spoken with disapproval to Ned once about Robert's tendency to stray into women's beds.

True, but she did not love Robert, so it was easy for her to make that judgement. Love does funny things to your standards. If she were truly, deeply, in love with Rhaegar, then she may well have chose to overlook the fact that he already had one wife. Especially if Elia were more of a "wife in name only."

 

[Boaz]

where was Rhaegar when Ned came to rescue Lyanna from his tower?

Rhaegar was already dead. The Trident was before the rape of King's Landing where Ned and Robert quarrelled. It took Lyanna's death (at Starfall?) to reunite them. And Ned said something like "We missed you three (Kingsguard) at the Trident." And Arthur Dayne responds with "We serve and obey, but I'll kill you anywhere."

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

True, but she did not love Robert, so it was easy for her to make that judgement.

We don't know that. Thus far, the Rhaegar+Lyanna= Jon theory is speculation only. I don't remember ever reading that Lyanna did not love Robert in return.

I have another question- how long was Lyanna a prisoner of Rhaegar's? Is it possible at all that Jon is the ******* of Robert and Lyanna? Lyanna would not want Robert to know because he would most certainly a) try to legitimize the child, or b) at least acknowledge him- both of which would put Jon in a position of extreme danger. She had to know she was dying when she made Ned promise whatever it was, and therefore she must have known that Robert would have to marry someone else.

Just theorizing... helps the day go faster.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Rhaegar was already dead.

If that is the case, then where does the responsibility for Lyanna's death fall? (I mean in Robert's eyes- obviously, a great deal of us believe she died in childbirth).

 

[Boaz]

Has this been discussed before? Robert + Lyanna = Jon. Hmmmmm. So Jon is Stannis' nephew. Melissandre would love to get her hands on him...

 

[Summer]

How would Tyrion or Jon (Targaryen bastards at best, no relation at worst) have more 'rights' to the throne than Dany, trueborn daughter of King Aerys?

Remmember, Dany is female, and in Westeros only a son can be heir to the crown.

 

[Raven]

Boaz:

It seems that Arthur Dayne and others in the Kingsguard knew the truth about the nature of Rhaegar's and Lyanna's relationship. Would the other survivors of Aerys' Kingsguards also know? Do Barristan and Jaime know about Jon and if Lyanna was Rhaegar's wife/lover/hostage?

Arthur Dayne is described as Rhaegar's closest friend as well as a Kingsguard. It's likely, therefore, that he knew much.

Jaime was kept close by Aerys at all times, so his contact with Rhaegar is more limited, and I am certain that neither he nor Barristan knows about Jon. But AFFC might give you more information about Jaime's knowledge of Rhaegar, I understand.

Arya:

I have another question- how long was Lyanna a prisoner of Rhaegar's? Is it possible at all that Jon is the ******* of Robert and Lyanna?

I've tried this one myself. Sadly, the dates don't work out. Jon was born more than a year after Lyanna last saw Robert, unless somehow Robert managed to meet up with Lyanna after she was kidnapped by Rhaegar, which obviously is pretty unlikely.

Summer:

Remmember, Dany is female, and in Westeros only a son can be heir to the crown.

Some notable qualifiers here: in Dorne, women can inherit normally, and indeed they can do so in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms in certain circumstances. For example, Maege Mormont 'inherited' from Jorah, and Lady Hornwood inherited from her husband.

In this particular case, if Jon is legitimate, I think his claim supercedes, but there could be a genuine doubt if Jon is a *******. Many nobles would prefer a trueborn Queen to a ******* King.

There is also precedent among the Targaryens for a woman trying (and failing, admittedly) to seize the throne.

And finally, Dany is not a great respecter of tradition.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Wow! Loads of points to answer there.

There's a crucial difference, in that the vows the Great Council were prepared to absolve Aemon of were Maester's vows. After he declined, Aemon then took NW vows so that he would not be seen as a potential claimant for the throne: suggesting that the latter set of vows are seen as harder to put aside than the former.

fair enough, but I'm sure they could dissolve them if they really wanted to. After all, the man who is king can change or break laws - is so very far to go from that to changing and breaking laws to make a king?

In addition, if Jon won't even accept Stannis' offer to become Lord Stark of Winterfell, I'm wondering if he'd don a crown.

That's because he knows/believes he's a *******. He refused mostly because he knows he's not a true stark, that he has no RIGHT to Winterfell. If he were to find out he was the trueborn son of Rhaegar + Lyana, who knows?

Question: given what we know of Lyanna's character, is it likely that she would acquiesce to being a second wife?

If she loved the guy, and knew he loved her she may well have. I mean, if people in those days were used to marriages of convenience for political gain with little prospect of finding love in it, why should she balk at marrying a man she loved, even if he had another wife? I mean Catelyn's POV revealed she had no problem with the thought of Ned sleeping with other women when he was in the field with his army, it was just him bringing Jon back with him that angered her.



Their views on what was and wasn't acceptable are probably very different to ours.

Do you think (if Lyanna loved Rhaegar) that Lyanna was swayed by whatever information turned Rhaegar from a scholar into a warrior? Could she have come to him out of a sense of duty to a prophecy?

I don't think she would have gone to him on the say-so of prophecy, but i can easily see Rhaegar telling her about it.



Which brings me to the viewing of danny’s in the house of the undying, when she she's Rahegar, A woman, and a baby he names Aegon. He says this baby is the "prince that was promised".



Now, there are several possible takes on this that come to mind:



1) The woman is Elia. The baby is their son Aegon. He IS the PTWP - unfortunately he's dead. We've already seen with the stallion who mounts the world that prophecy can be broken



2) Jon is the PTWP. Rhaegar, knowing the prophecy/part of it knew his son would be "the prince that was promised" and assumed his first born son would be he. This is supported by the naming of his daughter, nhareys (v.badly spelled but I CBA checking ), after Aegon's sister/wife. either the PTWP was said to be Aegon reborn, or some other reference to dragon's and "three heads" was made and Rhaegar jumped to the conclusion that they were linked to Aegon and his siblings. Rhaegar, thinking he will father two girls and a boy, believes he must father a second girl child on a second woman, sleeps with lyana, she gets up the duff, whoop-de-do prophecies coming true....... out comes another boy - good job poor old Rhaegar’s dead, he made a miscalculation somewhere.



3) Rhaegar got it wrong, he's not the father of the PTWP, someone else was destined to father him.



4) There is no PTWP, the copy of the prophecies that Rhaegar acquired was missing the page that said, "All such persons portrayed in this work are fictional and any similarities between real persons living or dead are entirely coincidental."

It seems that Arthur Dayne and others in the Kingsguard knew the truth about the nature of Rhaegar's and Lyanna's relationship. Would the other survivors of Aerys' Kingsguards also know? Do Barristan and Jaime know about Jon and if Lyanna was Rhaegar's wife/lover/hostage?

Tyrion told Bywater not to tell ANYONE, even himself, what the plans for hiding tommen were. It's more then likely that the location of Dayne and co. would have been on a need to know basis - and baristan etc. did NOT need to know.

Back to DE's comment on Jon's claim (if he's trueborn) being better than Viserys' and Danaerys' claims... I'm not sure on the laws of primogeniture and inheritance in Westeros... but the V's and D's claims as the children of Aerys are hard to ignore. I think Jon has an uphill battle in proving his parentage let alone his legitimacy to the throne.

In the scene in ACOK where mormont tells Jon about Aemons claim to the throne, he mentions that after his eldest brother died his sons were next in line, died and then Aemon's 2nd eldest brother became heir. As to proving it, well, if he gets enough swords to support him he could claim to be god and the people would meekly bow their heads and swear it was so.