Glory Road

[Princess Ivy]

this is the third one of his i've treid, and i'm really enjoying it. rather than straight sci-fi, this seems more fantasy driven, although the action is fast paced, i'm not fining it abrasive. although i would prefer a little more characterisation.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

Here was my own take on Glory Road a month back:

Glory Road's one of the very few Heinlein novels (the only other one is Magic, Inc as far as I know) that wander into fantasy territory, although the parallel-worlds thesis is prominently invoked to provide some sort of practical grounding for it all. It's a fantasy-ed up version of the sort of action-packed protagonist-centered tale Heinlein was at his best with. His humourous bits can be a bit dicey, but there are a few good gags. The characters may not be very realistic, but they are so vivid and in-your-face that they come alive for the duration. There's a lot of the usual railing against popular democracy and a few examinations of sexual mores along the way, a spanking scene (something that sadly became increasingly mandatory in Heinlein's books) and only one orgy, for a change. Two really, but our hero only participates in one. The actual plot is a bit slight - modern-day Ocar Gordon is recruited by a beautiful woman to go on a perilous quest, defeats a few preliminary monsters, tackles the big challenge and rescues the desired artifact, marries the woman (who turns out to be the person in charge of the multiple worlds), gets bored, lumbers around back on Earth for a while, and then decides the time has come to set out on that old Glory Road again. Still, it was a fun book. Heinlein clearly had fun writing it, even if he didn't go on to make a habit of working in a fantasy vein, and it's hard not have fun reading it.

It obviously is hard not to like the book!

When it comes to characters, I have to side with you - I don't believe Heinlein was rver capable of creating truly adult, well-rounded characters.

In a way, this novel reminded me a bit of Piers Anthony with less puns and more sex.

 

[Princess Ivy]

oh, low blow there babe, i think anthony has far better characterisation, although he does love his puns, as do i, his motivations stand up very well. as for being frivolus (i take it we're only bashing the xanth books here) read ogre ogre and tell me it's not deep!

but yes, i keep getting distracted with this one, my son has pulled the cover off, and my daughter asked why there is a naked lady on the cover (i swear, she doesn't mind dragons and blood, but she's embarrassed by the cover here) but with the little darlings back at school, i should be finshed by wednesday (today is college reg, tommorow is shopping) but then i have a feeling i'm gonna yell a lot about the treatment of women as slightly dim toys and sex objects who need a grrrrrrrr'spanking'grrrrrrrrr (quote from the book inside the gr) to show them who is in fact boss. you're duly warned, so i'd take cover.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

Oh, I wasn't trying to take a blow at Antony, who seems to be a nice gent who makes an honest living writing amusing books. I look forward to your tants about the spanking and such.

 

[Princess Ivy]

OH NO HE DIDIN'T! (and he actually did)
she told him off for being stupid, and he did the whole macho thing and threatend to spank her! so much for being an independant woman and the boss, oh no, she has to bow to his supposed superiority! i'm going to finish this if only to imagine him getting a large poisoned thorn in the groinal area! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

If you think that's bad, you should I Will Fear No evil. Actual quote from the book: a young secretary telling her employer: 'But, boss, contraception is a girl's responsibility!' I kid you not. Cheeky fellow, that Heinlein.

 

[Princess Ivy]

i'm surprised he wasn't lynched by a mob of maurading secretaries

 

[Carolyn Hill]

Yeh, Heinlein says things that make it sound like he might appreciate women as humans with untapped potential for filling unconventional roles (e.g., "An all-female government could not possibly be worse than what we have been enduring. Let's try it!" --in the afterword to the 1980 version of "Who Are the Heirs of Patrick Henry"). But in the end, sex and stereotypes get in his way.

That said, I must admit that when I was eighteen and went on my first date, what made me sure that I liked the guy was that he had read and liked Glory Road, which was one of my favorite Heinlein books. Eight years later, I married the guy. Twenty-four years later, we're still married. So I can't really complain about the book!

 

[The DeadMan]

I have read most of Heinlein's books and Glory Road is my favorite. A close second is Citizen of the Galaxy. Have Space Suit Will Travel is also one of my favorites. I have reread these books many times and still enjoy them. They take me back to a simpler time in my life.

 

[Urlik]

Yeh, Heinlein says things that make it sound like he might appreciate women as humans with untapped potential for filling unconventional roles (e.g., "An all-female government could not possibly be worse than what we have been enduring. Let's try it!" --in the afterword to the 1980 version of "Who Are the Heirs of Patrick Henry"). But in the end, sex and stereotypes get in his way.

IMO, Heinlein uses the stereotype image in a slightly lazy way but with a reason.
The stereotype is easily described and it is very easy for the reader to picture but these "bimbos" and "dumb blondes" that were merely decoration in other SF are strong characters who are more than capable of looking after themselves.
his portrayal of women may not be accurate but at least he promotes equality in ability and when faced with danger, his female characters deal with it instead of screaming and waiting for a big strong man to save them.

 

[TTBRAHWTMG]

Try to keep in mind that this guy was born in 1907. He wasn't completely free of society's attitudes toward women, but how advanced was he for his day? His female characters were more "real" than any in SF in that day. Most of his women were strong, intelligent, independant and capable. Even when he overtly threw in sexism, eg Jubal and his secretaries, it was clear that Heinlein believed the woman actually ran the show. It's been awhile since I read Strangers, but I remember one passage where Jubal starts getting really bad, and Anne Dorcas and Miriam say "He's beginning to think he's boss again." and ignore what he is saying, pick him up and throw him in the pool.
One of his recurring themes is that woman are superior in many ways...tonnes of examples, look at comments on piloting in Troopers or listen to Hazel Stone complain that none of the men she worked with could solve a double integral without a pencil. He also often protrayed women in positions of authority, not uncommon now, but very uncommon for a guy born in 1907.
Sometimes he has his characters protray shocking sexist attitudes, not because he agrees with them, but in an effort to expose what he hated in the 50s woman.
After reading all of Heinlein, and especially considering his relationship with Virginia, I believe that Heinlein was way ahead of his time, but still a prisoner to some of his earliest socialization. I see his female characters as attempts at promoting sexual equality while still appreciating natural gender differences.
Too many people mistake equality with parity. Male and female are equal, but naturally different...and I, for one, find those differences glorious!

 

[j d worthington]

There's something missing here, too... Heinlein's strong belief in personal responsibility. From my reading of Heinlein, I'd say that comment about birth control fits into that: While the male in a relationship should indeed practice responsibility, it's the woman who'll be carrying the outcome around for nine months. Unless she wants the child, it's her responsibility to make sure she doesn't get pregnant... whether that means being on contraceptive pills, making sure he uses prophylactics, or abstinence, etc. Not that that relieves him of doing his part, but he's not the one who's going to be dealing with the physical consequences.

That said, I still agree that it's a rather naive and sexist remark; but then again, I've known an awful lot of women who are Heinlein fans and agree with it because it puts them in control where such things are concerned... and that, I think, is something Heinlein would have liked.

The spankings... that one's a multi-edged thing; broad humor, but also tying into his idea of "there can only be one boss" and it has to be one or the other -- ostensibly, at any rate. He was also very aware of how fragile the male ego often is, and his female characters are also very aware of that and sometimes make allowances that seem egregious to us (myself included). In the end, though, Heinlein does portray his women as frequently much more intelligent than his men, and much sharper when it comes to understanding how people work... both in the abstract and intuitionally....

 

[Urlik]

Too many people mistake equality with parity. Male and female are equal, but naturally different...and I, for one, find those differences glorious!

Vive les différences

 

[TTBRAHWTMG]

There's something missing here, too... Heinlein's strong belief in personal responsibility.

"...whatever you've done, whatever you've been, is all, totally, one hundred percent, your own fault. All." - Dr. (Colonel) Richard Colin Campbell Ames in The Cat Who Walks Through Walls.

 

[Fahim]

I liked "Glory Road" but the ending felt incomplete to me - it felt as if it should have been a longer novel with a bit more by way of plot but that it was written in a hurry Personally, I liked "Starship Troopers" and "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel" better - but that's just me.

 

[j d worthington]

Fahim... I would disagree. I would say that Heinlein is following a very honorable precedent here: The Worm Ouroboros, by E. R. Eddison. There are various things in Heinlein's novel that I think are tips of the hat (though I've not checked this out; however, it would be very unlikely for Heinlein not to have read a book that had such prominence when he was young, and had such an impact on fantasy and science fiction in general, and which had been revived in both 1952 and 1962, and would be revived again in 1967.

The Worm Ouroboros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Fahim]

Fahim... I would disagree.

Not sure which bit you're disagreeing with j. d. - whether it's about the story feeling incomplete or rushed ... or both Of course, I'm not arguing with you here since everybody gets a different feel for things when they read. I just felt that there was more to the story, that there had to be more layers or more twists if you will.

 

[j d worthington]

Sorry. Should have been more specific:

I liked "Glory Road" but the ending felt incomplete to me - it felt as if it should have been a longer novel with a bit more by way of plot but that it was written in a hurry

And that's why I brought up Eddison's Ouroboros... I'd say that it might put a different twist on this. Basically, I always got the idea that the ending to Glory Road was something of an homage to Eddison's seminal novel. If you've not read that one, and you don't mind a quite archaic style, it's a wonderful book, indeed.....

 

[Fahim]

Ah, that makes sense Of course, when I was talking about the ending feeling incomplete, it was more in the sense of the whole novel, if that makes any sense. But now you've aroused my curiousity and I guess I'll have to download and print a copy and try to find the time to read it to see what you mean about the ending ...

 

[Urlik]

I like the ending of Glory Road
it leaves a lot up to the reader (in much the same way that The Italian Job does in film)
you can take the whole story as a true record of Oscar Gordon's experiences or you can believe that he is delusional. The reader can make the choice and can make a different choice each time the book is read depending on mood