Question from a newbie

[Florian the Fool]

Hi everybody - I've been lurking on this board for a little while during my re-read of ASoIF prior to the new volume, and I thought I might as well make myself known. I've had great fun reading through your various theories, or which some are perfectly sound and others are perfectly potty.

But onto what prompted me to putting my head over the crenellations. I was hoping you could help me figure out some of this whole Rhaegar-Lyanna-Brandon stuff. I've just got the bit in CoK when Catelyn questions Jaime in the dungeons of Riverrun when I came across this passage:

C: "Brandon was nothing like you"
J: "If you say so. You and he were to wed"
C: "He was on his way to Riverrun when...when he heard about Lyanna, and he went to King's Landing instead"

and suddenly I thought "Heard what about Lyanna?"

Just what was the sequence of events concerning Lyanna, Rhaegar, Brandon, Robert and whoever else? Have I forgotten something important? Did these events lead directly to Robert's Rebellion? Am I just being dim?

Any insight you can offer will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

The way i always read it was lyana either ran off with Rhaegar (my belief) or Rhaegar took her hostage. When he heard of this brandon and his companions went to kings landing to demand her release. Instead, aery's took them captive and demanded their father's come to court. Rickard start etc. went, and were murdered. On hearing this, Ned, Jon Arryn and Robert etc. called their banners and rose in rebellion.

 

[Boaz]

As far as I understand, this is how it goes:

The locations of the Starks in the days before the rebellion were:

Lord Rickard and Lyanna were in KL.

Eddard was fostering at the Eyrie.

Brandon and Benjen were in Winterfell.

I don't know if Rickard was paying his respects and showing his loyalty to Aerys or escorting Lyanna for her court debut... either way Bran was the Stark in Winterfell. So I assume they were all going to Riverrun for the big wedding, but something happened. That something was Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna (or Lyanna's running off with Rhaegar) and Rickard's objection to this. Aerys seized Rickard for complaining about Rhaegar. Brandon went to KL to object to his sister's kidnapping, his father's arrest, and presumably to demand blood (like Oberyn). Aerys captured Brandon and then had both Rickon and Brandon tortured and killed. Rhaegar was already presumably off with Lyanna at Starfall (?). Aerys seeing traitors all around, ordered Jon Arryn to hand over Ned (presumably he ordered someone to seize Benjen too). Arryn refused to let Aerys murder Ned, so he rebelled against Aerys.

Presumably when Lyanna was kidnapped (eloped), Robert Baratheon, her betrothed, sent a formal protest (and maybe a threat also) to Aerys. Aerys then demanded Arryn hand Robert over also.

Jon Arryn realized that this battle would only end when the Targaryens were obliterated... this meant replacing the ruling family. So he and the other rebels had to figure out who should be the figurehead of the rebellion and who should rule them when the fighting was done. The Baratheons claimed a closer descent from Aegon the Conqueror than the Starks, Arryns, or Tullys did... so Robert was chosen.

AU, Cully, Borba, DE, or most anyone else can probably add or amend my memory.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Oh, and hi.

 

[Boaz]

DE beat me to the post.

Two questions DE. If Rickard was at Winterfell, why was Brandon going to get married without any of his family in attendance and why was Lyanna at court all alone? (I am presuming Rhaegar stole her from KL and not Winterfell.)

 

[Dolorous Edd]

hmmm boaz, thought it was the other way round with brandon and rickard? maybe i'm mistaken, now i think on it i believe i am. either way their deaths were just the last in a long line of injustices by the increasingly mad aerys, and were the catalyst for the rebellion.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

i'm SURE brandon was arrested because he rode into the red keep screaming for Rhaegar to come out and relase his sister etc. and aerys arrested him for treason against the heir. had rickard already been seized 1) he would have been shouting for aery's as well and 2) even a hothead like brandon stark wouldn't have delivered himself into the hands of the king. remember, what rhaegar did was essentialy a squable between individuals, but Aery's was the KING.

 

[Florian the Fool]

Edd is right, at least according to Jaime:-

J:He [Brandon] rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder...
C:...Aerys accused them of treason and summoned their fathers to court to answer the charge.

Of course, Jaime may not be the most reliable of witnesses, and Catelyn is relying on second hand information.

But it seems we don't know where Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna, where they both were when Brandon rode to KL (I'm guessing we're to assume the Tower of Joy), whether Lyanna wanted to go with him or not and, most importantly of all, why GRRM has not explained any of this vitally important back story so far, save for the few tantalising hints we keep scrabbling over like ravens over corn.

Is there something unexpected up his sleeve?

 

[Culhwch]

Is there something unexpected up his sleeve?

Could there be any doubt?

I'm not sure that Rhaegar and Lyanna were at the Tower of Joy at the start or during the length of the rebellion. I can't remember the exact timeframe, but I think the fighting went on for a year or so. I assume that throughout that time Rhaegar was fighting with his men - he doesn't seem the kind of lord to lead from the back - with Lyanna kept somewhere safe, close at hand, perhaps Summerhall, or with one of his more trusted bannermen. When things went south at the Ruby Ford, perhaps Ser Arthur and co. had orders to then remove Lyanna to the Tower of Joy for safekeeping. It must have been a while after the Ruby Ford that Eddard reached the Tower, as well, as he had to take King's Landing and break the seige at Storm's End first. Just so very much we don't know....

And welcome aboard, Florian. How's Jonquil?

 

[Florian the Fool]

And welcome aboard, Florian. How's Jonquil?

She's well, thanks for asking. Beautiful singing voice, you know. It must be her Welsh blood.

 

[Boaz]

Welsh? Don't you mean Cornish, err Dornish?

 

[Florian the Fool]

You may be right. I get confused between all those little, unimportant principalities that are tacked on to larger, better countries...


/ducks and covers....

 

[Boaz]

Agreed. There's the US and China and then the principalities.

BTW, good first topic FtF.

 

[Florian the Fool]

BTW, good first topic FtF.

Thanks, we must get back to it sometime (perhaps when my post count has gotten into double figures and I don't feel like such a newbie ).

BTW, loved your work in the Terry Brooks forum.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Welcome, Florian!

Okay, so I'm still a little hesitant to believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were lovebirds. I'm holding out for the possibility that she was forced into the relationship, just in case.

Some people have speculated that Rhaegar knew about the prophecy. Ser Barristan informed Dany that Rhaegar was uninterested in fighting until he read something in a book that inspired him to change his ways. To some, this means that somewhere Rhaegar found evidence of the prophecy. Then, Dany saw Rhaegar in a vision, speaking to Elia about the Prince Who Was Promised.

Rhaegar sought to woo Lyanna despite the fact that he was already married. While Targaryens were known to take more than one wife at times, I wonder if Lyanna was an unwilling participant. Perhaps Rhaegar was so hung up on the idea of the prophecy, and knew that Lyanna needed to be involved, regardless of her personal preferences.

Whether it was love or rape, what I have read about Rhaegar's character does not cause me to believe that he is a man who would knowingly cause his kingdom to fall into war and strife simply because of a woman. It had to be deeper than that.

As for the timeline of it all, honestly I can't help with that- my boyfriend stole my copy of ACoK. I guess I could just jump forward to ASoS, but I don't like reading them out of order...

 

[Florian the Fool]

Arya, I wrote a long and interesting reply to your post and then something went wrong and I lost it all. Give me a little while to calm down, and I'll try again.

Sigh....

 

[Florian the Fool]

Okay, let me try this again.

Thanks for your thoughts Arya. I'm very intrigued by the theory that Rhaegar felt Lyanna needed to be involved to fulfil the prophecy. To my mind, it fits very nicely because she was a Stark of the ice filled North, and he was a prince of the fire loving Targaryens.

Is the vision you refer to the one Dany had in the House of the Undying? Or is there another one in SoS I've forgotten about? (Just started the re-read of SoS) If so, it doesn't fit with the above theory, because that was a vision of Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon - no ice in that family. Perhaps it was only later that Rhaegar learned that the PWP had to be born of both ice and fire, which precipitated his abduction of/elopement with Lyanna.

Except that in the Undying vision, Rhaegar does say "His song will be of ice and fire", so that blows that theory. Sorry, sometimes I think while I'm typing. Perhaps Rhaegar had a different interpretation, which he later revised.

It might be helpful to know when the Harrenhal tourney took place when Rhaegar named Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty. Was that before or after Aegon was born? Any ideas? I may just be retreading old ground here - I haven't actually read every single thread on the board

As to Rhaegar not plunging the realm into war for the sake of a woman, I think wars have been fought for less (the War of Captain Jenkin's Ear, maybe). More seriously, there's no reason to suppose that Rhaegar would have anticipated the consequnces of his actions. Honourable and scholarly as he was, he was still the Crown Prince of the family that had been ruling for hundreds of years. The Targaryens would no more have considered that anyone would rise against them than Stannis Baratheon would have considered owning a brothel. Robert's Rebellion was without precedent, I think.

One last thing...

my boyfriend stole my copy of ACoK.

This is grounds for divorce, surely! At least, I hope you stole something equally valuable of his. Like his car. Or some close members of his family.

 

[Culhwch]

Ser Barristan informed Dany that Rhaegar was uninterested in fighting until he read something in a book that inspired him to change his ways.

Yeah...

Chapter Fourteen
CHICKS DIG SCARS​

Sorry, sometimes I think while I'm typing.

Well stop it. It's banned here.​

 

[Florian the Fool]

Well stop it. It's banned here.

Which? Thinking or typing?

 

[Raven]

It might be helpful to know when the Harrenhal tourney took place when Rhaegar named Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty. Was that before or after Aegon was born? Any ideas?

Harrenhal took place after Aegon's birth, IIRC. Don't know if that helps or not.