Question from a newbie

That does help, Raven. Supposing he was aware of a prophecy at that point, he may have found that Aegon didn't fit the prophecy, and that could have spurred him on to go for Lyanna.
Also, I'm not sure that Elia was in the vision that Dany saw. She could have simply assumed it was Elia, since she couldn't have learned of any other woman bearing Rhaegar's child.
 
Arya: no, GRRM has specifically confirmed that the woman in the vision is actually Elia, and the child her son Aegon. Not a mistake, not a misidentification.

Also, I think it's unlikely that Rhaegar could have discovered Aegon didn't fit the prophecy. Even if I'm right about the timing, Aegon could only have been months old at most.
 
However, Raven, we do not know what the prophecy entailed- whether there were to be any identifying characteristics about the PTWP (I'm not saying in the manner of Harry Potter or anything like that), or there was supposed to be a certain timeline, or what.

Oh well, this is all just to pass the time anyway, right?
 
Raven said:
Also, I think it's unlikely that Rhaegar could have discovered Aegon didn't fit the prophecy. Even if I'm right about the timing, Aegon could only have been months old at most.
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Not sure I follow your reasoning there, Raven. Aegon's age needn't make any difference to how Rhaegar interprets this prophecy, if it is a prophecy about circumstances of birth (as such messianic prophecies tend to be), rather than about actions performed by the individual.

I'm seeing a sequence something like this,

Aegon is born, and Rhaegar believes him to be the PTWP, as later seen in Dany's vision.
Rhaegar then learns something more about the prophecy that causes him to re-interpret it to include Lyanna (presumably as the mother of PTWP)
Rhaegar wins Harrenhal, and shortly after abducts Lyanna.
Events transpire as outlined in Boaz and DE's earlier posts.

Of course, we don't even know for sure there WAS a prophecy to re-interpret, so maybe Rhaegar was just jealous of all the attention baby Aegon was getting, and decided to get himself a little extra action.
 
Florian: :lol could be. ;)

My own belief is that Rhaegar's actions at Harrenhal don't have anything to do with the prophecy: they don't need that to explain them. I believe it was only subsequent to Harrenhal, if at all, that Rhaegar re-evaluated the prophecy to include Lyanna. So, I'm biased. ;)
 
Even after Martin finishes this series and I've read all the books, I'll still be here trying to figure stuff out.
 
AryaUnderfoot said:
As for the timeline of it all, honestly I can't help with that- my boyfriend stole my copy of ACoK. I guess I could just jump forward to ASoS, but I don't like reading them out of order...
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I HATE reading books out of order, in fact i literally cannot. Even with books i've already read and am re-reading i have to start at the begining of the series. GRRM could hand me the manuscript for ADWD today and i really, honestly, couldn't read it, or even peak, until i'd read AFFC. :eek: Am i the only one so aflicted?
 
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You're not alone there, Dolorous Edd. I couldn't do it. I've been reading non-fiction in an effort to pass the time. It doesn't quite do it for me, but it's either that or go slowly mad watching television.
 
Could Rhaegar's relations with Lyanna not be related to the prophecy at all. To me it would be more interesting if Rhaegar and Lyanna was an accident. What if Rhaegar and Lyanna was nothing but a physical act and afterwards Rhaegar felt obligated to stay with Lyanna. Almost like Robb and his wife(can't remember her name right now), both sacrificed a strong aliance, the Frey's and the Martells, for an act of passion and then tried not to dishonor the other. It may seem improbable but I'm looking for a different perspective on the situation her. Anyway there was a quote I don't have it exactly but I'm pretty sure it was from Tyrion in ASoS but it went something like this "We're all fighting the wars and solving the problems of our fathers before us, and then we'll make the same mistakes again and our children will fight our wars."
 
I personally think it's very doubtful that Rhaegar (or anyone else with knowledge of the prince/asur asi ((sp?) if they are indeed one in the same) understood the prophecy half as well as he thought he did. Prophecy in fiction is always vague and usually some crucial part of the text has had coffee spilled on it or had "Aemon woz 'ere 1237" and "<-- is a tosser - Baelor" scrawled all over it. :D So i suspect he read things into it that wern't there, or misinterrepted it in some other way that led him to a conclussion that was slightly off-course - making him believe that aegon would be the prince who was promised, rather then jon (or someone else, if u dont think jons the prince).

I think rhaegar + lyana happened because they fell in love, pure and simple. Whether rhaegar then re-interpreted the prophecy to include lyana or not, nobody knows.
 
cercar, interesting thought. Martin likes to foreshadow and to work multiple stories on a theme.
 
Dolorous Edd said:
Prophecy in fiction is always vague and usually some crucial part of the text has had coffee spilled on it or had "Aemon woz 'ere 1237" and "<-- is a tosser - Baelor" scrawled all over it. :D
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Don't make me laugh like that Edd, or people will want to know why I'm enjoying my job so much!

Now that I've remembered the Knight of the Laughing Tree (and one of the possible identities of said knight), I'm inclined to agree with you and Raven. The prophecy probably had little to do with Rhaegar's abduction/whatever of Lyanna.

Of course, he may have accidentally fulfilled the prophecy without realizing it. How's that for irony?
 
Florian, you're saying that perhaps Rhaegar, after twenty some years of being the dutiful son to Aerys and the obedient servant of the Prophecy, thought that he had done his duty and brought around Aegon... Rhaegar thought Aegon was TPTWP so he decided to finally sow his wild oats (twenty years late) and get into S&M (or a legit affair)... and the result was really TPTWP, correct? That's a new twist I'd not read before. I like it!

Of course, I like em all. Doh!
 
Something like that, yes.

Interestingly, some have speculated that Aegon survived the Sack of King's Landing, and so may come forward one day proclaiming himself to be TPTWP, only for everything to go horribly wrong. At which point, the real PTWP will step forward....
 
The Blackfish said:
Just so I'm clear here
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You want to be clear on this? I admire your optimism.

To the best of my knowledge, the prophecy to which we all refer has never been made explicit. I don't think it's even definite that there is a prophecy - this has just been inferred from Rhaegar's sudden change from scholar to warrior following something he read, and his reference to Aegon as the PTWP in Dany's vision.

There is a prophecy regarding Azor Ahai that Melisandre refers to on a couple of occasions - "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone" and there was something about drawing the sword Lightbringer out of a fire as well (I don't have CoK to hand at the moment), which sounds an awful lot like Daenerys to me. But as to whether Azor Ahai is the same person as the PTWP, the jury is still out. I think. I've no doubt someone will correct me if I am wrong.

If it's unambiguous clarity you are after, I suggest reading David Eddings.
 
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