speculation/spoiler catleyn

[asdar]

I'm just adding one of my wild speculation theories.

Could Catleyn be some type of Other?

Her pale features and the fact that she's been dead lead me to think that all is not well with Lady Stark.

Something is not right at all with the people that die and come back to my way of thinking. The others are building up for something and I can't imagine it being anything less than world domination. A person like Catleyn would be pretty valuable to anyone trying to destroy the seven kingdoms.

This could stem from the fact that I don't much care for her in the book. I think she's made every wrong choice a mother could make and yet still seems to act superior to everyone else.

 

[Boaz]

This could stem from the fact that I don't much care for her in the book. I think she's made every wrong choice a mother could make and yet still seems to act superior to everyone else.

Asdar, you are now my favorite poster! I love you! Check out the thread Is Catelyn dead? If Catelyn had only admitted to herself that she was a greedy, self-serving, witch, then I'd have respected her... the same way I respect Cersei, Oberyn, Sandor, and Tyrion.

 

[Raven]

Now why would she admit to herself something that plainly isn't true? *wonders*

 

[asdar]

Let's turn this into an I hate Catelyn thread.

Here's what I dislike about her. She raised Sansa to be weak and tried to 'fix' Arya of her notions.

She treated Jon, who was just a babe, as a pariah even though from all accounts he never once showed greed or malice toward his family.

By some miracle of chance and due to her selfishness she's with Bran and does her only good act and saves him, or at least helps summer save him then turns around and leaves him and Rickon, after she knows there's been an assassin sent to kill him.

She wasn't there when Bran fell, which might not be equal to fault but then she abandons the rest of her children when they do need her just to go to the one son who is doing fine on his own. Then when she's supposedly there protecting him, she leaves him alone with a woman that kills him with love.

She's never fought, never seen battle, her belief was that women should sew and look pretty playing the political games of court life, then she is supposed to be some world class general that knows better than any born leader the strategies involved in leading a battle and furthermore leading the war.

It's a pretty shallow cover to say she was taught by her father when Ned taught Rob, and well, and Ned was more involved in leading the war by far than anyone.

When she finally captures the man she absolutely believes crippled her favorite son she doesn't kill him. I like Tyrion and don't want him dead, but it's hard for me to buy that a very unstable mother with her knife to her sons attacker's throat wouldn't pull the handle and make up a story about a trial afterward.

Then just when the first person in the book I was happy to see die did die they bring her back. You just know she'll be as bossy and unstable as she's always been but now her thoughts can't even be stopped by death.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

When she finally captures the man she absolutely believes crippled her favorite son she doesn't kill him. I like Tyrion and don't want him dead, but it's hard for me to buy that a very unstable mother with her knife to her sons attacker's throat wouldn't pull the handle and make up a story about a trial afterward.

]]

I am by no means about to stick my neck out for Catelyn here, but... in that case, Tyrion was a Lannister, and her husband and two daughters were pretty much in the lion's den at that point. Killing Tyrion could have been the biggest mistake she made.

 

[Raven]

OK, why not? Might refresh me. Could get long though.

She raised Sansa to be weak and tried to 'fix' Arya of her notions.

Well, Ned is as much to blame for these things as Cat. There is considerable evidence that he was as much in favour of the girls being raised in this fashion as Cat was.

Plus, it was Septa Mordane who did most of the actual raising of the girls.

Cat herself, it should be noted, was raised as a strong, independent woman, and treated as a son by her father until Edmure came along.

She treated Jon, who was just a babe, as a pariah even though from all accounts he never once showed greed or malice toward his family.

This is true. However, Lady Hornwood refused to even have Larence Snow in the castle, and refused to let him inherit even though she had no children of her own, despite the fact that he never showed any greed or malice either. And Cersei had Robert's bastards killed!

This is how bastards are treated in Westeros. If you can find any example of a ******* being better treated by the 'offended' spouse in the books than Cat treated Jon, come back to this. But I'm not aware of any examples.

She wasn't there when Bran fell, which might not be equal to fault but then she abandons the rest of her children when they do need her just to go to the one son who is doing fine on his own.

Well, Robb clearly did need her. And Cat clearly did not want to do this, but thought it was the right thing to do. Which is the very opposite of selfishness. Wrong? Arguably, but being wrong is not a fault.

Then when she's supposedly there protecting him, she leaves him alone with a woman that kills him with love.

Ah, the 'damn Cat for not being psychic!' criticism. By the same token, Ned is at fault for Robert's death, right?

She's never fought, never seen battle, her belief was that women should sew and look pretty playing the political games of court life, then she is supposed to be some world class general that knows better than any born leader the strategies involved in leading a battle and furthermore leading the war.

OK, here you're not just wrong in my opinion, but actually wrong in fact. It's clearly stated in the books that Hoster taught Cat about tactics and strategy for many years when she was young, and IIRC even Ned listened to her advice. Never seen battle? We don't know. We do know she sat at home waiting for her father to come home from battles many times, and later did the same for her husband too.

Plus, Cat herself shows no interest whatsoever in sewing, looking pretty or playing politics. She has no time for all that, and shows little to no concern for her appearance, or for the 'feminine' stuff. She sees a woman's role as steward, diplomat and adviser for her husband.

On top of this: Cat shows genuine concern for and interest in the common folk (at one point, she recalls the name of a woman who used to come begging for shows at Riverrun, which is pretty impressive after fifteen years), she is physically brave (as well as the attack on Bran there is the journey through the Mountains of the Moon), she does her duty even when she thinks it unwise (such as supporting Robb in claiming a crown when she desperately wants him just to go home), she is perceptive (look at the accuracy of her perceptions of Renly, Brienne, or Walder Frey) and she is fairly kind (she sympathises with Brienne and saves her life, for example).

Oh, and you failed to mention any evidence of greed. This would be because there isn't any: Cat isn't greedy. That's a really off-the-wall accusation, like accusing Ned of being slovenly.

Overall, I find it pretty weird that people dislike Cat, especially those that like Arya. Cat is much more like Arya than Sansa: in fact, Cat is considerably less selfish and nasty. Arya has a mean streak a mile wide, though for some reason this is seen as a Good Thing.

I won't tell you GRRM's opinion of Cat's critics, but it generally does involve him rolling his eyes.

 

[asdar]

That's a very good point and I don't disagree that it would have had disastrous results if she had killed Tyrion.

I think that killing him in that tavern and making up a story would be no different than having killed him after a mock trial, or an actual trial for that matter. Vengeance was coming for Tyrion's death no matter the legitimacy of his trial.

 

[Florian the Fool]

I wouldn't agree with an assesment of Catelyn as selfish. However, I was always fighting against something while reading her POV's. I knew that I should sympathize with this character - she is a woman trying to make her way as best she can in a man's world (as is Cersei, and of the two approaches adopted by these two characters, I know which I prefer), she is forced to make some agonizing decisions (as Raven's post illustrates) and has to endure the loss of her home and all of her family. And yet.....

Don't ask me for specific examples, but somehow I always got the impression of self-righteousness from her. Maybe from that clash with Jon near the beginning of the saga. First impressions count for a lot, after all.

 

[asdar]

Where did Hoster learn the tactics he taught her?

Clearly the largest war in modern seven kingdoms history was the rebellion by Ned and Robert. They led it and had actual experience in war.

GRRM gives no reason she should have been taught better than Robb was, no examples of how the person who taught her learned and beyond that she never actually was involved.

She had no actual experience and yet she's supposed to have some insight that people who have actual experience along with years of training don't. Robb was supposedly extensively trained his whole life which was longer than her training before her brother.

Cat might not be greedy in the sense of looking for money but she wanted power. She wanted her daughters to go to court. She wanted Ned to have power as exemplified by her talking about him going in book one and how he was an important man in the kingdom.

If she wasn't involved in the raising of her daughters then I think even less of her. I think that she was the driving force behind the girls training. Ned let Arya train with Syrio when they got away from Cat. I never saw any sign that he cared for the trappings of court in the same way that Cat did.

Regardless of the way other bastards were treated it's a bad character trait to treat any child poorly. Her remembering one poor woman doesn't make her the champion of the poor. Tyrion was more a champion of the poor than she ever was.

Written perceptions with no background make her character weaker in my opinion. Someone that doesn't know Theon is bad and can't see the goodness in Jon isn't skilled to judge anyone. Then all of a sudden she becomes perception incarnate and can see the inner workings of every mind.

I'll admit, I do not like her and let my dislike color my opinions but I think there's plenty of reasons not to like her.

That's part of what bothers me is the fact that she had this perceptiveness added after the fact. S

She let the Littlefinger situation get out of hand, why wasn't she perceptive enough to see that her friend was in love with her, why wasn't she perceptive enough to realize that Rickon needed her.

I honestly see her the same as I see the screaming hysterical women in cheap horror movies.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Where did Hoster learn the tactics he taught her?

Clearly the largest war in modern seven kingdoms history was the rebellion by Ned and Robert. They led it and had actual experience in war.

GRRM gives no reason she should have been taught better than Robb was, no examples of how the person who taught her learned and beyond that she never actually was involved.

Before Ned and Robert went to war, they had to learn their tactics somewhere. That's the benefit of being a noble- they had the means to hire instructors, and to purchase maps and books.

She had no actual experience and yet she's supposed to have some insight that people who have actual experience along with years of training don't. Robb was supposedly extensively trained his whole life which was longer than her training before her brother.

Regardless of who has more experience with battle tactics, Cat had more experience with people than Robb did. Her advice to him was more reliant on what she knew of certain men's characters (Greatjon Umber, who is strong and brave but not necessarily a thinker; Roose Bolton, not as fiery as Greatjon but more ruthless and cunning, etc.) In those areas, I think that Cat definitely had good insights to give regarding who should be placed where in battle.

Cat might not be greedy in the sense of looking for money but she wanted power. She wanted her daughters to go to court. She wanted Ned to have power as exemplified by her talking about him going in book one and how he was an important man in the kingdom.

Cat is simply doing as any noble might, by sending her daughters to court. By giving Sansa a chance to someday be queen, she was also giving Sansa a chance to have more than most women ever had.
As for Ned, Cat did not want him to go. She knew he had to, though. Robert would have taken it as a slight, and with Cersei's influence he would probably have thought that there were darker reasons behind Ned's refusal. In addition, they had just learned that Jon Arryn had been poisoned. Ned did not want Robert to be left alone with the Lannisters after that.
There are many things that made me dislike Cat- for one thing, she was entirely too gloomy. But I can see why she is like that. It's painful to read her POVs, but I can't dismiss her as a bad person. No mistakes were made by her because of bad intentions. She was simply being human.

 

[asdar]

I agree Cat was doing as any noble might, for me to like her instead of understand her I'd much rather have her doing as any mother might.

Ned and Robert won the war, they were taught by books but they learned in war. Cat learned from books and yet was always sure that she was right and Robb was only right if he agreed with her. I agree that in the books she showed insight but to me it reads false because of her lack of experience. If knowing tactics and leading a war could be taught from books then the maesters would be kings.

Cat's perceptions were always after Rob's own.

He made the first judgement on his own in every case, she helped him avoid one battle at a price that eventually cost him his life. I wouldn't blame her for that but I wouldn't nominate her for mother of the year either.

I think she was given good insights into people in the way a historian is given insights into what should have been done in a long past battle. Somehow after missing pretty obvious character traits her whole life she suddenly knows all. I don't much like it and I never liked her from the first scene onward.

So many negative things in this book come directly from her mistakes. Littlefinger's manipulations, Jon's assignment to the wall, Rob's death, Rickon's maddness, even Ned's death and her sister's madness can be partially lain at her feet.

She was in the wrong place at the wrong time in every case and I could live with that and still love her character if she didn't get portrayed as some know it all super tactician.

I can't believe my favorite character died at that dinner and she lived.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Who is your favorite character?

 

[asdar]

That's so hard for me.

I liked Robb a lot, he seemed to have a wisdom and decency and yet retained his youth and reality.

I think my favorite character is Sansa, but the PoV I can't wait to read every time is Arya so I'm not sure which to say. Then I think, what about Bran, I love the whole Bran character and have great hopes and then go on to Sam at the wall.

It's a whole lot easier for me to say the very few I don't like that the ones I do like.

I think I've gotta go with Sansa though.

 

[Raven]

asdar:

Where did Hoster learn the tactics he taught her?

Clearly the largest war in modern seven kingdoms history was the rebellion by Ned and Robert. They led it and had actual experience in war.

Um, well, you might have missed this bit... but Hoster was a key ally of Robert and Ned in the war, to the extent that Ned married Cat (and Jon married Lysa) to get him on-side.

So Hoster fought in the Rebellion too, and was without doubt a key adviser to both Robert and Ned (in fact, I believe reference is made to him and Ned leading men in the Battle of the Bells).

Before this, we know that Hoster had fought, though we don't know in what battles: GRRM makes clear reference to it through Cat's recollections. Most likely this was against rebellious vassals. Certainly, Hoster was an experienced leader by the time of the Rebellion (as was Jon), while Ned and Robert were not.

She had no actual experience and yet she's supposed to have some insight that people who have actual experience along with years of training don't. Robb was supposedly extensively trained his whole life which was longer than her training before her brother.

Cat had plenty of experience, having lived through two major wars (Robert's Rebellion and Greyjoy's Rebellion) and having seen the conduct of those wars at rather close quarters (being the wife and daughter of key men in both).

You don't need to swing a sword in person to have experience of strategy and tactics. Dany doesn't, and her record is pretty good. Tywin rarely did so, and I don't imagine Jon Arryn was leading the van at his age either. Many lords don't ride to battle personally. We know that Ned consulted Cat in matters martial: again, we're not told in which battles, though.

Cat's education in tactics is more extensive than her son's, due to her being older and more experienced... and anyway her advice is just that, advice, which Robb listens to and then decides the value of, the same as he does with the Blackfish, Roose Bolton, or the GreatJon. She never pretends it is superior to his knowledge, and if he decides not to follow it, she accepts that.

Besides, Cat rarely offers strategic advice - mostly she sticks to diplomacy and comments on the character of his men, which she obviously knows much better than he does through her experience of dealing with them.

Cat might not be greedy in the sense of looking for money but she wanted power. She wanted her daughters to go to court. She wanted Ned to have power as exemplified by her talking about him going in book one and how he was an important man in the kingdom.

Arguably, but not for herself. She would like Sansa to be a Queen. But who wouldn't want this for their daughter? And then, she does NOT want Robb to be a King, if it would risk his life. So her 'greed' for power is rather questionable.

As for Ned... he IS an important man in the kingdom. There is arguably only one man more important, and only a handful who are equally important. And Cat does not actually want him to go: she thinks he MUST. Even if it means her being left alone.

If she wasn't involved in the raising of her daughters then I think even less of her. I think that she was the driving force behind the girls training. Ned let Arya train with Syrio when they got away from Cat. I never saw any sign that he cared for the trappings of court in the same way that Cat did.

Hmm... you wouldn't be suggesting that it was Cat's responsibility to raise the kids because she was a woman, would you?

Yeah, Ned let Arya train with Syrio, but it wasn't as if the only reason he didn't before that was Cat's disapproval, is it? And judging Cat on the fact that you think she would have forbidden it is judging her on your assumptions about her, which is weak.

Personally, I never saw any sign that Cat cared for the trappings of court. Quite the opposite.

Regardless of the way other bastards were treated it's a bad character trait to treat any child poorly.

So? It's a bad character trait to treat mentally ill people poorly, but until quite recently everyone did. Your own grandparents or great-grandparents probably did. Do you condemn them for it?

Either you're holding Cat to a higher standard than everyone else, or you have to condemn most of the rest of the characters in the book too. And few of them had the personal pain and conflict about the issue that Cat did.

And this is without mentioning Ned's liability in the matter. He never seems to have tried to encourage Cat to be nicer to Jon, and if R+L=J is true, he let the relationship between the two of them fester for the sake of his promise.

Her remembering one poor woman doesn't make her the champion of the poor. Tyrion was more a champion of the poor than she ever was.

No, but that's an example, not all she ever did. And it's not a contest...

Someone that doesn't know Theon is bad and can't see the goodness in Jon isn't skilled to judge anyone.

Hmm, well, that's Robb (and most of his advisors) f*cked on the first count then. In fact, ironically the two people to see Theon for what he was from the first are... Cat and Jon.

She let the Littlefinger situation get out of hand, why wasn't she perceptive enough to see that her friend was in love with her, why wasn't she perceptive enough to realize that Rickon needed her.

Well, the first was when she was a naive teenager... and the second is not actually true. Cat says several times how much Rickon needs her, and how much it hurts her that she feels that Robb needs her more, so she cannot go to him. So she does realise that.

Jon going to the Wall was as much his own responsibility, and Ned's, and Maester Luwin's for that matter, as Cat's. After all, Ned could have said 'no' and sent Jon to a vassal for fostering. He preferred the NW option. It was Jon who first suggests it, Ben who mentions it to Luwin and Luwin who suggests it to Ned. All Cat does is agree.

Similarly, Robb's death is mostly Robb's fault. Cat knew nothing of the marriage to Jeyne until too late. And again, she does no more than agree to the trip to the Twins, which the GreatJon and the Blackfish and the rest of Robb's advisors do too. In fact, Cat is the one who urges Robb to be cautious... doesn't do any good, but she did all she could, insisting on the bread and salt to establish guest right.

Blaming her for Lysa's madness is pretty weak. As well blame Robert for Stannis'.

If Cat has a problem, and I think it's widely acknowledged (I've even heard GRRM say something to this effect) it is that, as AryaU says, her POV is too gloomy.

GRRM's comment on this was that POVs need to be understood as POVs: internal to the character. Just because Cat was often depressed or negative doesn't mean she was always complaining to others. She hides her feelings a lot.

Still, this doesn't make the reader any happier to read her woes. But Cat's life is one of woe, throughout the books. That's not her fault.

 

[asdar]

We'll just have to disagree.

I think her treatment of Jon is a character flaw, I haven't seen any sign of an argument that changes my thinking on that. It said in AGoT that Ned and her had fought about her treatment of him. It quite obviously wasn't admirable to treat bastards poorly even if it was common.

Her training in tactics at her fathers hand were before either war started. Ned didn't train her in war further and she wasn't anywhere near when many of the wartime events took place. I'm not even arguing that she was set up to look like she was trained but I feel it's a weak spot in the storyline.

I know that you can be smart and figure out tactics with no actual experience but she shows no real sign of it. My complaint about her is as much her attitude of superiority with no experience as it is about her competence, because we never actually see her doing anything good.

Thinking she's always right and judging the quality of Rob's decisions shows that she thought she was better qualified than him. If she'd shown the slightest doubt or worry about decisions then at least you could subtract that from the things I hate about her, but as it stands she wasn't confident, she was arrogant.

I find it hard to believe that she thinks her son that's an adult and leading an army needs her more than her 4 year old son, especially as she's not trained to fight even if she's become this super tactical genius.

When Cat found out the king was coming it said how much she had wanted to go to court. She saw the opportunity for her daughter to be Queen and never thought of her daughter's happiness or love.

The absolute truth of her actions and out loud words condemn her in my opinion. She treated a boy horribly and helped get him sent to the wall with no possible future, she left a four year old boy alone and a crippled son alone when she knew he was in danger.

I'm not blaming her for her sisters madness but I do say that anyone that can tell in one look that Brienne is good should have the insight to see her own sister needs help, should know that her friend had stronger feelings for her and that it might cause trouble before he humiliated himself and nearly got himself killed.

She's my most hated character, and the one I'm most critical about for the writing.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

When Cat found out the king was coming it said how much she had wanted to go to court. She saw the opportunity for her daughter to be Queen and never thought of her daughter's happiness or love.

I don't recall ever reading that Catelyn wanted to go to court. I do recall, however, her disappointment at learning that Ned would leave her behind at Winterfell, knowing that it was unlikely she would see him for quite a long time.

In Catelyn's own experience, happiness and love never factored into her marriage. She was betrothed to Brandon Stark at the age of twelve, and then married to Ned. In one of her earliest POVs, it stated that for the first year of her marriage to Ned, he was off fighting a war, and she was left to bear Robb alone. She only came to love him after they had spent a lot more time together.

 

[Raven]

Well, asdar: I'm just confused.

I can say without false modesty I know the books pretty well, and Cat's sections very well. I do not recall some of the things you say as being in the books at all. Not to say they're not there, mind, I've forgotten things before...

Specifically, I don't recall anything about a 'fight' between Ned and Cat over Cat's treatment of Jon. Can you refer me to a quote?

The closest thing I recall is Ned speaking harshly to Cat when she refuses to keep him at WF. Some have taken an implication from that that Ned resents Cat's treatment of Jon, which possibly he does, but as I say it's largely Ned's own fault if R+L=J.

I am sure, however, that it would be regarded as weird and probably suspicious if Cat had NOT been distant with Jon. Why else would Ned not tell her the truth (assuming R+L, etc...)? Because he needs Cat to treat Jon like a ******* should be treated.

And other than taking nothing to do with him, Cat doesn't actually do anything to Jon. Not admirable, perhaps, but not that bad either.

Ned probably didn't train Cat, but he talked tactics with her almost certainly. This is experience. You seem unclear whether it's training or experience she lacks. She has both. As much as Ned had when he started out, and more than Dany had.

As for thinking she's always right and never doubting... Cat's POVs are positively riddled with her self-doubt. Did she do the right thing freeing Jaime? Does Robb need her? Was she too hard on Edmure? Is Tyrion really guilty? She worries about her decisions constantly. Arrogance is as weird an allegation as greed.

Cat believed Robb needed her precisely because of the army he was leading. The GreatJon, Roose, Karstark: these were dangerous men whom Robb frankly did not know well enough to safely trust. He needed someone who he could trust implicitly and who knew these men and the Riverlords well. Rickon and Bran, meanwhile, had a keepful of the most trusted retainers the Starks had looking out for them. Sure, they'd rather have had their mother, but they were safe without her, Robb was not. (Or that was Cat's judgement, and she had no reason to think otherwise.)

When Cat found out the king was coming it said how much she had wanted to go to court.

Again, I simply don't remember any such quote. Can you point me to the passage?

She saw the opportunity for her daughter to be Queen and never thought of her daughter's happiness or love.

Well, she thought her daughter would be happy being Queen... and she was very likely right. If Joff hadn't been such a wee git, Sansa would have been perfectly happy as Queen.

And since Cat herself had married for duty and found love with the husband that marriage had given her, it seems reasonable she would assume the same would apply to Sansa.

She treated a boy horribly and helped get him sent to the wall with no possible future

Now here I'm sure you are wrong. GRRM has stated that Cat never treated Jon horribly: she was distant with him, that was all. Also, it's stated several times that the Wall is the one place where a ******* can have a possible future, because his birth doesn't matter. Jon himself thinks this.

I'm not blaming her for her sisters madness but I do say that anyone that can tell in one look that Brienne is good should have the insight to see her own sister needs help, should know that her friend had stronger feelings for her and that it might cause trouble before he humiliated himself and nearly got himself killed.

Sure, but she hadn't seen her sister for fifteen years, how was she to know? And back then when LF fought for her hand, well as I say, she was younger then.

I know many people who hate Cat, but very few who will not say that she is a very well written character despite that. Think about it: who else in fantasy fiction has created and used a character like her? A female main character who has no great beauty, no magical powers or insight, isn't a tomboy and wields no weapons, doesn't seduce people, isn't a wise woman or master intriguer, no exceptional skills at all: just a happily married mother approaching middle age whose driving aim is to keep her family alive.

Heck, if nothing else, your own strong reaction shows the writing is good enough to provoke.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Raven... what can I say? You've managed to write everything that my mind merely fumbled with. I'm impressed.

 

[Boaz]

I just spent half an hour on a post as long as Raven's last one... and it is lost! Boo hoo!

 

[Raven]

Thank you, Arya. Practise makes perfect, I've been through the Cat discussions many times. I wasn't fond of her myself when I first read the books, but each reread she grows on me more and more, as a character.