speculation/spoiler catleyn

[asdar]

I'll dig for the passages, right now I'm at work so I don't have my book. You really haven't answered most of my accusations directly. Cat wasn't good to Jon, and saying that it was normal behavior for the time doesn't make it right. Slavery and having boys kill their puppies was normal too but that doesn't make that right.

At least in one direct passage she said to Jon, "I wish it were you," paraphrased, in reference to Bran being crippled. Now you tell me that isn't treating him horribly. Bran, Arya, Robb and Ned all thought he'd been treated unfairly. I don't have my book here but I can look up passages to each. Robb's talk with Jon was memorable to me so I know I can find that one easily. For goodness sake, she encouraged Ned to send the boy to the wall to get rid of him.

I think she was written as a tactician after the fact and I find that to be poor writing. She wasn't there for most of the war and that's precisely my point. Ned was away for quite a while after all.

She wasn't there for the fighting or planning, she never ordered troops, she had no experience in leading. Many writers will give people special abilities at the point of need but I always find it poor writing to suddenly have someone who has never shown any talent become instantly skilled. She had two whole wars in which GRRM could have shown some spark, some ability to lead, but he never did.

In Robb it was acceptable and well written because it clearly showed his training from almost the first scene of the book. For Cat it was written in with no development.

I could deal with her going and seeing a few things and leading a skirmish or taking charge of something and finding she had a talent for it, but the fact is that she just didn't. She'd never done it, and had no reason to be so assured of her own ability or insight. She broke a direct order from her king and should have been killed. She abused her son's power and cost him some faith with his followers. You can argue that she had reason but it wasn't a good act or an act for Robb.

Dany as a counterpoint character was put in command. It showed how she went through the fire and became a leader. GRRM showed her transformation. GRRM developed her, in other words whereas he didn't develop Cat in that way at all.

He's my favorite author but I found her character as one of only two in the book that I thought had major flaws in development. I felt he wrote her ability after the fact to appease the female hero population. I'm not sexist and love a good female hero, Arya is awesome. Cat wasn't a hero and more importantly never grew into a hero in the book and yet she suddenly sprouted this amazing insight like wings in the middle of the book.

She left her 4 year old son. In any world is that a good thing? She showed overwhelming pride in thinking she could jump right into the war Robb was leading and be better than everyone there.

I do want to clarify one thing though. I think her character was VERY well written as far as her being a protective mother. I applaud his writing of her in that way and she was developed from the start in that way. I think he captured a very realist tone for a spoiled noblewoman who wanted her children to advance in society.

I don't think she's portrayed as a good mother necessarily or as a nice person but I love the writing for that part. I don't like her character in the book because I think she's being a bad mother when she leaves Rickon, I don't like her character because she takes it onto herself to release Jaime, and I especially don't like her character because of the way she treated Jon but for that part I LOVE the writing skill.

The only part of the writing that I criticize is her being portrayed as more intelligent than every other leader of the north. Of her being shown as anything close to wise, because she was never developed as a wise person. She jumped from problem to problem panicking and always making the wrong choice. There's no wisdom that I ever saw in Catelyn.

 

[Raven]

asdar: again, my main reaction to your post is puzzlement.

Cat wasn't good to Jon, and saying that it was normal behavior for the time doesn't make it right.

I'm not saying it was right, to be clear. I'm saying that it seems odd to condemn only Cat for the generally poor treatment of bastards in the book. Why not condemn Stannis for the things he says about bastards, for example? Or Robert for the fact that he never paid his own bastards a blind bit of attention, apart from Mya, and that was only until he got bored?

In her general treatment of Jon, which is emphatically not OK, Cat is no worse and no better than anyone else in the books behaves or expects. That was my original point, and it remains.

At least in one direct passage she said to Jon, "I wish it were you," paraphrased, in reference to Bran being crippled. Now you tell me that isn't treating him horribly.

Oh, I have no intention of doing so. I should have said that George says that apart from that incident, which was in the author's own words 'exceptional', Cat did not mistreat Jon.

Bran, Arya, Robb and Ned all thought he'd been treated unfairly. I don't have my book here but I can look up passages to each.

Well, we'll discuss them when you do. For now, I can only say I don't recall any of them thinking that, or even thinking of Jon's relationship with Cat much at all. Even Jon doesn't think of it that often. Cat probably thinks about it the most, on occasion with guilt.

Is the 'Robb' passage you're thinking of the one Jon recalls? The one where Robb tells Jon that Cat says he can never be Lord of WF? If so, it's worth recalling that this is simply the truth. Harsh, maybe, but true. And Cat didn't say it to Jon: she said it to Robb, probably because Robb needed to have it made clear to him.

Not nice, but then I find one of the main criticisms of Cat is that she isn't 'nice'. People seem to expect that, as a mother, she has to be 'nice', not just to her kids but to Jon and everyone else as well. I think this is why some people react badly to her: a mother who isn't universally nice and patient and kind is seen as being like a warrior who isn't brave.

But the beauty of the character is that Cat is much more than a mother. She is a person before she is a mother. And it is her personal feelings towards Jon, unfair as they are, that prevent her from showing him kindness.

She wasn't there for the fighting or planning, she never ordered troops, she had no experience in leading.

Well, she never tries to do any of these things, apart from the planning, or offers any advice on them. It's not like she's demanding to command the van and telling people how to swing a sword. She simply offers a few observations on strategy, based on what she knows from talking to her father and Ned.

She broke a direct order from her king and should have been killed.

Hmm, technically it wasn't a direct order: Robb never tells her 'don't release Jaime'. But this is quibbling. Cat does what she thinks is right, something she knows is politically impossible for Robb even if he wanted to allow it, and no, it wasn't for Robb: it was for Sansa.

She is willing to accept punishment for it, and does. Sure, she probably knew she wasn't going to be killed, but she was detained by Edmure and sent away by Robb. She lost all her influence. And she accepted this punishment, and never protested, because she knew she deserved it and more. But she did it anyway. I call that rather selfless.

I'm not sexist and love a good female hero, Arya is awesome

Well, one can argue that Arya, a tomboy, is much less of a 'female hero' than Cat. All Arya's notable characteristics (toughness, physical bravery, etc.) play against her sex, rather than with it. Cat is the opposite. Her best characteristics are very typically female, if there is such a thing.

I think he captured a very realist tone for a spoiled noblewoman who wanted her children to advance in society.

If that was what GRRM intended Cat to be - and I have good reason to believe that it was not - he failed, because Cat never appears 'spoiled' to me. But like I say: I think you'll find that this is because George never intended Cat to be seen that way at all.

 

[asdar]

I definitely do condemn Stannis and Robert for their treatment of bastards. I don't necessarily think either of them are good people in the book. Cat wasn't good, at a minimum she was not good to Jon and so I don't like her.

The reason why I condemn her even more than either of them is that she lived with Jon from the time he was a babe. Robert didn't live with his bastards and so didn't have a chance to watch them grow and become attached to them.

She's a woman and a mother and yet she hated a baby. Regardless of the norms that alone is enough for me to intensely dislike her. That is good writing in my opinion and I applaud the writing, just not the character Catelyn.

That's the crux of that whole thing for me and if you agree that she wasn't good to Jon, even in that single moment then you should understand at least minimally one reason I don't like her.

The passage I'm thinking of is Robb talking directly to Jon, another scene is Arya talking directly to Jon watching a fight in the yard that I believe was between Bran and Jeoffrey. I could be wrong and it could be a later conversation but I think it's there.

 

[asdar]

On the second part where I think the writing of Cat is weak, totally separate from the fact that I don't like her, I'll just have to reiterate that there was no development of her as anything remotely resembling a good advisor or leader.

Wisdom and her are like oil and water until I feel she suddenly is portrayed as wise and insightful. It's not the goodness or evil of her character that I dislike it's the change in her character that I see when she goes to join the army.

I feel that she changes from being a good wife and over protective mother into an insightful advisor on war with no development. To me she's judgemental with no actual knowledge and I don't feel it's supported in the story.

I love female heroes and I'd disagree with your stance that Arya is a Tomboy and less feminine. Arya can develop into a very feminine woman who happens to be a warrior or assassin.

I feel the same about Dany as I do about Arya. Dany is a hero, she is the classic tempered by fire leader that came through disaster and showed the strength of a leader. If Cat had one backstory written about her in the whole book that showed her as a wise tactical leader then I wouldn't feel that her character was weakly written.

The only back story that shows Cat in a tactical light is a very weak one about her father teaching her tactics because he didn't have a son. Even if that were believable the time frame for such would put her learning time at ending way earlier than Robbs own and with no experience I don't think is believable in the story.

It's not enough for me to have an auther say that someone learned tactics at their fathers knee, especially when in nearly every other case the characters are fully developed. In a novel for fun where the hero is pre-made I don't take the lack of development as seriously but in this setting I think it's a flaw in the gem.

 

[Raven]

asdar:

She's a woman and a mother and yet she hated a baby.

See my comment above. Cat's great sin is that she is a mother who doesn't love a baby. So, mothers must love kids, all kids, even those whose existence they have reason to resent and feel pain about? Not a very enlightened viewpoint.

That's the crux of that whole thing for me and if you agree that she wasn't good to Jon, even in that single moment then you should understand at least minimally one reason I don't like her.

Oh I understand it, of course. I just think that you give this sin undue weight. She's not a totally good character: she has weaknesses and flaws. But she's not evil either. Yet her weaknesses get her more visceral condemnation than Tywin gets, in my experience. (There are people out there willing to praise Tywin, after all.)

On any measure, Cat is no worse a person than Tyrion, Dany, or even Arya is. They are all flawed but basically good people. (Jon, it can be argued, is not flawed enough to qualify for this group, though his occasional temper may be a flaw.)

The passage I'm thinking of is Robb talking directly to Jon, another scene is Arya talking directly to Jon watching a fight in the yard that I believe was between Bran and Jeoffrey. I could be wrong and it could be a later conversation but I think it's there.

I remember both conversations. Nothing in them is a reference to Cat treating Jon badly as a rule. Robb expresses concern in case she has been nasty to Jon on that occasion, and Jon tells him she has not.

ETA - which is of course a lie.

The Arya/Jon conversation has a reference where Jon refers to his status as a *******, but IIRC that isn't anything to do with Cat.

Wisdom and her are like oil and water until I feel she suddenly is portrayed as wise and insightful.

Hmm. I thought she was always presented as fairly insightful and wise, right from the first Cat chapter. Guess we'll have to disagree there. I think Cat is very well and consistently written.

Arya can develop into a very feminine woman who happens to be a warrior or assassin.

Sure she can, and given the Lyanna comparisons she probably will. She isn't like that now, though.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

The reason why I condemn her even more than either of them is that she lived with Jon from the time he was a babe. Robert didn't live with his bastards and so didn't have a chance to watch them grow and become attached to them.

She's a woman and a mother and yet she hated a baby. Regardless of the norms that alone is enough for me to intensely dislike her. That is good writing in my opinion and I applaud the writing, just not the character Catelyn.

I fail to see how living with Jon should guarantee Catelyn's love for him. She lived with Theon for a great amount of time, and it's quite obvious that she has no great love for him. Jon is perceived by Catelyn as the product of a threat to her- she knows nothing of his true parentage, except for the rumors of the beautiful Ashara Dayne who Ned apparently loved. The unsurety of a new, loveless marriage with a husband who was, at the beginning, unaffectionate, paired with the idea of him loving someone else and possibly favoring that woman's child- those things got her hackles up, and I can't blame her. And I do not see what being a woman or a mother has to do with anything, either. Cersei is a woman and a mother and she had babies killed. Robert, a father and a king, cared nothing for his bastards, regardless of the fact that as a king he should be their protector. Catelyn did a great deal more for Jon than anyone else in the story did for bastards- he was clothed well, fed well, and educated well. He was not abused or mistreated in any way. He was spoken to in a harsh manner by a woman who was devastated and not in her best state of mind. It was hurtful, yes, but what child has not been snapped at by an adult one time or another?

As for Catelyn's lack of tactical knowledge, I'm really wondering how she can possibly be compared to Dany that way. Daenerys is a girl of fourteen. She spent the majority of her years closed up in a house, listening to tales of her ancestors. I doubt her brother Viserys had much wisdom to impart on the subject of war. Yes, Dany was tempered by fire, but how did this cause her to be a tactical genuis? She's intelligent and obviously has a great deal of charisma. If anything, however, she had even less training when she started than Catelyn had acquired at her father, brother, and husband's sides.

 

[asdar]

The very first time that Cat mentions Jon that I recall was when Ned and the children were planning on going back with Robert. Her words were something like, "He will not stay here."

That's enough for me to hate her. She didn't say that as someone who doesn't care for a baby, she said it with hatred toward the boy.

She is most decidedly a worse person than Arya and Dany because she was evil toward this child in a time of peace, they both committed their questionable acts to survive.

It's the same situation as a thief who steals for gain and one who steals to feed his starving family. I hate the first, and while I will still hold the second responsible I don't feel any animosity toward him.

 

[asdar]

Catelyn never did a single thing for Jon, not one. She did everything she felt she could get away with to hinder and harm him.

I never said she should love Jon, I said that she saw him grow up and hated him. Did you ever hear even her say anything bad that Jon ever did in the whole story?

Do you think it's right to hate a baby, to refuse to let Jon stay in Winterfell when she knew by her own PoV that he'd be mistreated if he went to Kings Landing, to say the words she said to him when Bran fell?

I find it inexcusable, and even if she were an angel in every other part of the story, which she is not, I'd hate her just for that.

I don't see an argument for anyone liking her except to say that she's alright other than her utter contempt for someone who never did her a wrong.

That's not even getting into the way she treated Rickon, which would make me hate her all over again even if I could like her after her attitude toward Jon. She left a four year old boy. She's his mother and saying that it's ok because others are there to care for him doesn't make it right for me. Cersei is a better mother than Catelyn ever came close to being.

 

[asdar]

I wasn't saying that Dany should in reality be a tactical genius, I was saying that her ability was developed within the story.

She led after the Khan died, the story told of her actions and decisions and her actions led to her getting followers within the story.

Dany's character was developed, Catelyn's character wasn't in my opinion.

If from Dany's point of view she was a tactical genius before her brothers death I'd have the same criticism of her. She was scared and worried all the time, she grew into the role of leader, she was developed. I can even remember the point I felt she started to grow. It was a memorable scene in the book. I felt it was when she rode the horse at the wedding of the Khal.

 

[Raven]

asdar: you seem to have just resorted to stating your reactions to Cat as the incontestable facts.

Statements like "She didn't say that as someone who doesn't care for a baby, she said it with hatred toward the boy", describe your impressions of what happened, not what happened. Similarly, "utter contempt" is your description of her feelings, and I just do not see it. Nothing suggests 'utter contempt' for Jon.

In fact, as say, Cat later feels guilty over her treatment of Jon (when in the Vale) and even later, when she is praying, Cat ponders whether Jon's mother (if she still lives) loves Jon as much as she loves Robb and her other children. This passage doesn't suggest contempt or hatred.

As for Cat being 'evil' toward Jon: can you cite anything she did that was 'evil'? Did she arrange for him to suffer an 'accident'? Did she turn the Stark retainers against him with lies and bribes? Nope.

How about "hindering and harming him"? Well, she didn't try to prevent him dining with the family, training at swords and tactics alongside Robb, listening to Old Nan's stories with his half-siblings. Heck, she was even happy for him to join the Watch and rise high in it. (Incidentally, the NW was considered good enough for Ned's own brother, so I think you're overstating how cruel and awful the very idea of sending Jon there was. Unlike other families, the Starks consider the NW to be a very honourable profession.)

Now, let me quote you exactly the sum of what we know about Cat's treatment of Jon prior to AGOT:

In a message dated 7/13/99 2:09:38 PM Mountain Daylight Time, markus-rasch@t-online.de writes: Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?

GRRM: "Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between ******* and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

(from




http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/SSM02a.html)

Just so we're on the same page, so to speak.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I guess what I have the biggest issue with here is that anyone can honestly say that they hate Catelyn. Hate seems to be a rather strong emotion to have towards a character who is not malicious, vindictive, or cruel. She is human, she has flaws, but I don't think that anyone in these books is deserving of hate, save one: Ser Gregor Clegane, who is on a completely different level than Catelyn had ever been.

When Catelyn left Rickon, she had no idea that it would be for such a long time. She left to bring Ned the dagger that had been sent to kill Bran. She was returning to Bran and Rickon when she came upon Tyrion in the inn. Naturally, she would not want to lead Lannisters straight home to Winterfell, where her children were. Much of what happened afterward was out of her control.

As a mother of five children who had all been cast to the winds, I don't think anyone can blame her for any of her decisions. How does one decide which child's life is more important? Should she stay home with her two youngest, who are in safe hands, or stay to guide her eldest, whose actions would have a direct effect on the lives of her two daughters and her husband? I cannot fault her for the choices she made.

 

[asdar]

You've admitted that Cat, didn't like Jon. You've heard and admitted the quote that she told Jon she wished it was him instead of Bran. That was evil and enough to hate her.

Am I making that up? You're insulting me by saying that I'm not sticking to the facts of the situation.

The absolute facts of the situation are plenty to support my hatred. Your excuse for her action is that it was common to treat people poorly. If it's your opinion that treating a boy that way is good then you're welcome to it, I wish you'd let me keep my opinion that the act was despicable.

That one statement is beyond anything anyone 'good' would ever do, and is proof in itself of her ill will toward Jon.

I apologize if I've taken offense wrongly but I feel like you're calling me a liar. I haven't lied and you'll admit readily that in that one case at least she mistreated Jon.

I never said she beat him, I never said she turned anyone against him. You're doing me an injustice implying that I said that.

Bringing up the wall is a complete joke. She didn't want Jon to go to the wall so he could find honor and she wasn't happy FOR him.

When he was going and the Maester said it was a time of sacrifice she had trouble not talking because she was thinking of her own children that were going away. Read that passage in the third or fourth chapter of AGoT and tell me that she was glad for him.

The thing was her children were going away for what she seemed to think was their own good and Jon was going away for life. Can you honestly say that any word by her in the book made her actions good, or even acceptable? Do you think She'd have been happy for Bran, Ricken or Robb going to the Wall? It was never written down but I don't think that's a huge logic leap on my part.

That she later felt guilty about the way she treated Jon is further proof of her guilt and not anything anyone can take as a positive trait.

I shouldn't have to defend myself on that and don't understand your apparent animosity toward my position on it.

There's plenty of other reasons that I dislike Cat and I've said them to the best of my recolection. She's never done anything good in the whole story in my opinion.

She's shown at least a little bit of Evil in that one thing and I think she's shown incompetence in every other thing she's done. If she were just a tragic hero then I'd at least have some sympathy but as it is I don't. Her statements to Robb when she said she asked to judge if he was truly ready smacked to me of arrogance and her opinions, stated by her of the leaders of the north further sounded arrogant to me. If I'd realized that I was going to have to get written confirmation from GRRM for anything I felt about the book then I'd never have started the thread.

That's my own opinion and for the most part I've supported them with written examples, many of which you admit and yet you insult me.

I can add up the facts any way I want and I think I've added them up the right way. George RR Martin is the author and absolute authority on what he intended for her. His quote in no way says that she was perfect or someone to be liked. I dislike her intensely for the reasons I've given and backed up.

Unless you show me facts that support her decision more than you have I'll stand by my opinion.

 

[asdar]

My post was in response to Raven's and not yours Arya. I do hate Cat though and the hatred I feel for her started before any of her children were in any danger.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Asdar, in defense of Raven I do not think she ever meant to be insulting. Her arguments against your opinion were matter-of-fact and were solely for the sake of discussion. Also, I do not think that she sought GRRM to step in on the argument- I think she was merely quoting his response to a question her had answered previously, about the bad feelings towards Catelyn that seem to be prevalent among readers. Regardless, nobody has meant to insult you or call you a liar. We're simply not in agreement. I think that we shall all have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. It's obviously a tense subject that might best be left alone for a while.

No hard feelings, pal.

 

[Raven]

AryaU: I found your response totally inaccurate on one count. I'm a bloke.

asdar: I do feel that we're talking past each other now, because you seem to have taken some of the things I'm saying wrong.

For the record, I don't experience any animosity towards anyone on this board or others, particularly not over anything as inconsequential as analysing characters in a book. And I'm not calling you a liar: disputing some of your recollections and pointing out that your interpretation of the book is not the only valid one is as far as I would ever go.

Who would bother lying over something like this? Or insulting someone over it? It's only a story. We all have personal reactions to it, and that's fine. You can keep your opinions if you like: I'm only asking you to look at alternative ones as well. Like I said earlier, my opinion of Cat changed for the better the more I read the books.

I do have some advantage, perhaps, in that I have spoken to George and to people who know him well about the topic. These conversations lead me to believe that he did not intend Cat to be regarded as 'evil', and finds some of the reactions the character provokes a little OTT. But I don't think George would ever tell a reader that their reaction to a character was invalid because it doesn't match his intention.

After all, a story belongs to the reader as well as the writer. Your reaction and interpretation is as much a part of the story as his writing. That's what a writer aims to do: not tell you how to react, but just provoke you to react.

And these discussions are a great sign of how well George succeeds.

Many people cite the death of Ned as the moment they realised ASOIAF would not be a 'regular' fantasy series. For me, it was the moment you cite where Cat does something I agree is unforgivable to Jon.

Here we have two of the main characters, both 'good guys', but clearly their relationship is strained and painful. We were not to get it easy: this was not a story where all the 'good guys' got on and on some level respected each other even if they were different. No, they were divided by genuine, insurmountable and above all human differences.

Not only that, but one of them has done something that is by any measure clearly wrong. (I should note that Cat actually behaves worse than you mention: she is also unfair and hurtful to Ned, Robb and Maester Luwin at this time, and neglects Rickon. She's a mess and she later admits it.)

Yet it was clear to me that, despite that, we were not expected to lump Cat into the 'bad guy' group. Her reactions was wrong, a weakness, but a human weakness. The story is riddled with such things. And it makes it better.

I genuinely think that by basing your reaction to Cat on that incident, and reading her subsequent chapters in the light of that, you are missing out on some of the layers of the writing. But, that's OK. Whatever.

 

[asdar]

Raven, My apologies for reacting as strongly as I did.

I agree with most everything you said and I agree that Cat's actions at the begining were great writing and I think a sign that this would be a better novel than most others in the genre. Her character enhances the book, at least that part does in my opinion.

I've read the books 'til they're worn and every time I dislike her a tiny bit more so I don't think my opinion will be changing. I don't regard her as evil overall, but I do in that one case and I hate her character. Part of the perverse reason I hate her character is because it seemed to me that Mr. Martin wanted people to like her and I can't find anything I find admirable in her actions. I feel that a lot of positive traits she was later given were like band aid fixes after the fact to cover her bad ones traits shown in the first chapters.

On my last re-reading of the books I started thinking about those that died in the seven kingdoms and came back, like Cat. Was it the fire God that brought her back or some other God, or not a god at all but rather some magic. Then the next logic leap for me was wondering if the same entity that brought back Cat might be the one that animates the dead in the north. At first glance they seem to be fire and ice opposites but I wonder.

I know they pray to Gods, I'm not asking if there's religeon, I've just not yet seen proof of their involvement that couldn't be alternatively explained by magic. The Old Gods seem more realistic to me but I don't see any sign of them bringing anyone back to life.

 

[Raven]

asdar: no probs.

ON the subject of why people are coming back, my opinion was always that it was only those who have some unfulfilled mission, probably of revenge. But is it R'hllor, someone else, or magic? Well, on this type of question, I'm more-or-less sure GRRM will never state definitively an answer. He's never been one for making the metaphysics of magic and gods clear.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

AryaU: I found your response totally inaccurate on one count. I'm a bloke.

Good Lord, how embarrassing. Now that I think of it, I can't imagine why I ever thought you were a female. My mistake and my apologies. Perhaps it was just that what you wrote showed common sense.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Well, I think it's fair to say that Cat is one of the more contentious characters in ASoFaI - it certainly isn't the first time her character motivations have been attacked, and I've certainly voiced myself about disliking her character use and POV.

On saying that, it's worth underlining that GRRM has created a large number of well-constructed characters, with different gifts and flaws, and naturally each of us will view the different characters according to our own different likes and dislikes.