ChasenFate
Well-Known Member
In love with Brienne? Even with the chunk out of her cheek? Eeeewww!
[AFFC Spoilers] Margaery and Cersei
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AryaUnderfoot
AryaUnderfoot
I think that Margaery is still a maiden. Gut feeling, I guess. She does go horse-riding nearly every day, and she also seems to have a good head on her shoulders. I do not think that she and Loras were engaged in an incestuous relationship. If anything, they simply are in cahoots.
Regarding the Moon Tea, I do not think Pycelle made it up. He seemed genuinely distressed that he had to divulge that information in order to save himself. I also think it is a possibility that Margaery is having it made so that she can slip it to someone- but who? Maybe Sansa when she was still around? What a puzzler...
As for Cersei, I think that the **** will really hit the fan if she is made to confess. Think of all that she has done, and think of the danger that Jaime, Tommen, and Myrcella are in, now that she is in the hands of the High Septon!
Regarding the Moon Tea, I do not think Pycelle made it up. He seemed genuinely distressed that he had to divulge that information in order to save himself. I also think it is a possibility that Margaery is having it made so that she can slip it to someone- but who? Maybe Sansa when she was still around? What a puzzler...
As for Cersei, I think that the **** will really hit the fan if she is made to confess. Think of all that she has done, and think of the danger that Jaime, Tommen, and Myrcella are in, now that she is in the hands of the High Septon!
ChasenFate
Well-Known Member
AryaUnderfoot said:
I could not agree more. It will be great to see what path Martin takes on this.
I also agree that Margaery is still a maid. I agree with her being in cahoots with Loras. I think Highgarden wants to rule the realm. I think she was trying to groom Tommen, so he will do as she likes.
Maybe the moon tea was for one of her cousins. I have no idea on this one.
Well, here's a thought.
Does anyone know when she was getting the tea?
I think she was scared of Jeoffrey. Is it possible she was getting the Tea from back when he was alive and stopped when he died? You never know what he might do and the last thing I think she wanted was a kid with a monster.
I think I'm going to chain myself to my book so I can check these things.
Does anyone know when she was getting the tea?
I think she was scared of Jeoffrey. Is it possible she was getting the Tea from back when he was alive and stopped when he died? You never know what he might do and the last thing I think she wanted was a kid with a monster.
I think I'm going to chain myself to my book so I can check these things.
Culhwch
Lost Boy
I was under the impression that old Pycelle meant that he was delivering moon tea regularly up to the point of his confession...
ChasenFate
Well-Known Member
Culhwch said:
That was my understanding.
Boaz
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A friend of mine posed this theory to me yesterday...
What if Margaery used the moontea because she was having sex with Tommen? Margaery just wants to completely steal him from Cersei (according to Olenna, Mace, and Loras' plans). Remember the only time Tommen ever stands up to Cersei is on Margaery's behalf. He is enamoured of her... of course, he misses Myrcella who seemed to be his only playmate and Margaery is a good substitute... but if Margaery got Tommen to consumate the marriage, would he not then be totally in love with her? Margaery used the moontea because she does not yet (if ever) desire a child by Tommen. A ten year old father might seem abhorrant to many people... and others might call her Margaery the molester. I don't think a ten year old is capable of impregnating a woman, but you never know.
What if Margaery used the moontea because she was having sex with Tommen? Margaery just wants to completely steal him from Cersei (according to Olenna, Mace, and Loras' plans). Remember the only time Tommen ever stands up to Cersei is on Margaery's behalf. He is enamoured of her... of course, he misses Myrcella who seemed to be his only playmate and Margaery is a good substitute... but if Margaery got Tommen to consumate the marriage, would he not then be totally in love with her? Margaery used the moontea because she does not yet (if ever) desire a child by Tommen. A ten year old father might seem abhorrant to many people... and others might call her Margaery the molester. I don't think a ten year old is capable of impregnating a woman, but you never know.
AryaUnderfoot
AryaUnderfoot
What I'm wondering is- what would be the point of sleeping with Tommen, taking such a huge risk, and not wanting to conceive a child? I mean, if Margaery was going to go so far as to have sex with a ten year old boy, why not seal the deal and have his child as well? The whole point of securing Tommen's love and loyalty would be to secure Margaery's claim as his queen.
ChasenFate
Well-Known Member
Well if she did have sex with Tommen, it would have been to consumate the marriage, so it couldn't be over turned. I don't think she was having sex with him, I think Tommen would have talked or let it slip.
Culhwch
Lost Boy
But how would Mace have enough pull and power to save Margaery? The High Septon has all his knights and sparrows, not to mention his unswerving piety, while the power of Highgarden has met battle on Dragonstone, or is beseiging Storms End, or is fighting off Ironmen on the Mander....
Cersei just has to kill Ser Osney, the blue bard and Taena and she might be ok. Margaery needs to keep the blue bard or Taena alive, they both could clear her. Margaery has an army coming and the people are on her side. I can't see her not getting free of the Sparrows even if the High Septon is a loon.
I changed my mind on the Moon Tea being for Alla, Margaery says when she's talking to Cersei that "...Alla and Megga are hardly more than children." While that's not the same as saying they're still virgins it's a long way toward it.
So I almost think it Can't be Alla. I can't think of anyone else it might be.
The timing of things are really tricky, he time of infidelity has to be from after Jof's death to before Ser Osney's attempted romance. I'm still of the opinion that the tea was for someone else and that it'll come out in the testimony.
I changed my mind on the Moon Tea being for Alla, Margaery says when she's talking to Cersei that "...Alla and Megga are hardly more than children." While that's not the same as saying they're still virgins it's a long way toward it.
So I almost think it Can't be Alla. I can't think of anyone else it might be.
The timing of things are really tricky, he time of infidelity has to be from after Jof's death to before Ser Osney's attempted romance. I'm still of the opinion that the tea was for someone else and that it'll come out in the testimony.
Boaz
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The whole point is that Tommen is described by others as (these may or may not be Martin's words, but the idea is the same) tractable, controllable, trusting, and as doing as he's told. It can be fairly easy to get a nine year old to keep a secret from an adult.
In real life, how many children immediately tell everyone that they are sexually active? It almost always (if ever) comes to light when the child is an adult.
I think Margaery could convince Tommen to keep it their secret. Tommen would not like to face the wrath of his mother if she found out, so he would not tell her about it.
And the whole reason Margaery would do this would be to steal the trust and love of the king for the ambitions of the Tyrells.
All that said, I think it's improbable that Margaery is having sex with Tommen, but then I think the whole moontea situation is improbable.
What does Mace have to bargain for Margaery? Knights. The Tyrells appear to have more knights (maybe not total soldiers) than any other house. Mace could really transform the Faith's martial orders from vagabonds and sellswords to powerfully equipped and connected noblemen.
I had a dream last night that Cersei got out of the High Septon's dungeons. Jaime rode hard to her support, but she went back to business as usual.
In real life, how many children immediately tell everyone that they are sexually active? It almost always (if ever) comes to light when the child is an adult.
I think Margaery could convince Tommen to keep it their secret. Tommen would not like to face the wrath of his mother if she found out, so he would not tell her about it.
And the whole reason Margaery would do this would be to steal the trust and love of the king for the ambitions of the Tyrells.
All that said, I think it's improbable that Margaery is having sex with Tommen, but then I think the whole moontea situation is improbable.
What does Mace have to bargain for Margaery? Knights. The Tyrells appear to have more knights (maybe not total soldiers) than any other house. Mace could really transform the Faith's martial orders from vagabonds and sellswords to powerfully equipped and connected noblemen.
I had a dream last night that Cersei got out of the High Septon's dungeons. Jaime rode hard to her support, but she went back to business as usual.
Dolorous Edd
Ever the optimist
Boaz said:
Surely that would have been a nightmare though? Dear gods, lets hope she isn't that lucky, he isn't that stupid and we arn't that cursed
/me starts chanting "Burn the witch!"
AryaUnderfoot
AryaUnderfoot
My roommate finally finished the book last night so I could discuss everything with her. We were talking about the moontea situation, and we came to an agreement that Margaery MUST have had an ulterior motive when requesting the moontea from Maester Pycelle. Surely, with all of her power and connections as a Tyrell and queen, she could have gotten the moontea elsewhere, without risking her reputation. Why ask such a public figure, especially one who is also known for being a turncloak? The moontea has got to be only one small piece of a greater puzzle.
AryaUnderfoot
AryaUnderfoot
\Boaz said:
Unless Margaery were to play the "I've been sleeping with Tommen" card at this point. Think about it- she could have done all this to get Cersei just where she wants her- in jail, on trial, and out of her hair- maybe even executed for her crimes. Meanwhile, Margaery can use Tommen to secure her own throne. The only hitch that I can see there is that Cersei may be brought to confess that Tommen is born of an incestuous relationship with Jaime, which makes me wonder if the Tyrells are privy to that information already.
If Cersei admits that she's admitting to Treason.
I don't see Margaery as having any plan in this. She was too surprised at Cersei when she came to realize that the queen was behind at least some of her problems.
I'd sooner believe a "I slept with Joff, but didn't want a baby from that monster," than Tommen.
Tommen's never been characterized as mature enough for that to happen. I think the Moon Tea will be explained in a less revolting way. Meanwhile Margaery has an army coming and an army of angry peasants that love her. If she dies it's going to get hot there in Kings Landing for the Lannisters.
I don't see Margaery as having any plan in this. She was too surprised at Cersei when she came to realize that the queen was behind at least some of her problems.
I'd sooner believe a "I slept with Joff, but didn't want a baby from that monster," than Tommen.
Tommen's never been characterized as mature enough for that to happen. I think the Moon Tea will be explained in a less revolting way. Meanwhile Margaery has an army coming and an army of angry peasants that love her. If she dies it's going to get hot there in Kings Landing for the Lannisters.
The moon tea...first though - to keep her periods regular.
I don't normally notice the little details, but it's interesting to note the idea that Loras is the last with her at night, and the first with her in the morning. And then there was a passage - I think in one of Cersei's POV scenes - where she mentally remarks how Loras and Margaery together reminded her of herself and Jaime. Big hint?
Even if Loras and Renly were lovers, doesn't mean to say that Loras can't be bisexual?
I don't normally notice the little details, but it's interesting to note the idea that Loras is the last with her at night, and the first with her in the morning. And then there was a passage - I think in one of Cersei's POV scenes - where she mentally remarks how Loras and Margaery together reminded her of herself and Jaime. Big hint?
Even if Loras and Renly were lovers, doesn't mean to say that Loras can't be bisexual?
